Fantastico oppinions please

[haredo]

Perfect and good luck with your site ...

[DrByte]

@ Dr Byte & Kobra

I always do manual installs. I completely understand the point about not using it for updates. Out of interest is there a difference between a manual install and a fantastico install? Is there a difference in the file set on the server? I mean other than the fantastico files themselves which I know it writes to keep track of what version etc is current. Is there a difference in the actual files? Or is it just that you will definitely get the most up to date version with a manual install?

As far as I know they're the same set of files.
But using their upgrader is going to break things, often badly. And just installing using their installer puts you on their prompt list to offer upgrades. And that's dangerous for most (namely newbs who don't understand the template or override system and also for those who think that blindly clicking an automated upgrade will somehow magically also update all the files they've customized ... and that's a very bad mindset to have.)

Also, using their installer sets you up with a dumb "zen_" prefix in your database, making an additional layer of confusion when you want to copy your site to a local computer or to another server, and have never even heard of database tablename prefixes because you were never even asked about it in the first place since the autoinstaller insulates you from it. It certainly makes more work for supporting those users, and complicates things when they want to install addons or do things in phpMyAdmin.

And lots of other things that it falsely insulates the user from.

If you are having any troubles with what Fantastico is doing with your site, contact them directly: https://netenberg.com/#customer.html

[discoverytdi]

As far as I know they're the same set of files.
But using their upgrader is going to break things, often badly. And just installing using their installer puts you on their prompt list to offer upgrades. And that's dangerous for most (namely newbs who don't understand the template or override system and also for those who think that blindly clicking an automated upgrade will somehow magically also update all the files they've customized ... and that's a very bad mindset to have.)

Also, using their installer sets you up with a dumb "zen_" prefix in your database, making an additional layer of confusion when you want to copy your site to a local computer or to another server, and have never even heard of database tablename prefixes because you were never even asked about it in the first place since the autoinstaller insulates you from it. It certainly makes more work for supporting those users, and complicates things when they want to install addons or do things in phpMyAdmin.

And lots of other things that it falsely insulates the user from.

What you have said above has always been my opinion of third party installers, just I got totally frustrated from getting this error message

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@rvsolarsystems.co.uk and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an Error Document to handle the request.

Anyway I’ve downloaded the zen manual so I’m going do a manual install by the book. I should heed my own words when installing anything RTFM
read the manual

[frank18]

I have used Fantastico for most of my installs.

Fully agree with Dr Byte's comment about the "zen_" DB prefix but if you are comfortable with DB prefixes it makes no difference in the functionality of your install.

Having said that, always make sure that your Fantastico repository has the latest ZC version.

Fantastico for upgrades? Don't do it!! - see this post

[Elemi]

As far as I know they're the same set of files.
using their installer sets you up with a dumb "zen_" prefix in your database, making an additional layer of confusion when you want to copy your site to a local computer or to another server, and have never even heard of database tablename prefixes because you were never even asked about it in the first place since the autoinstaller insulates you from it. It certainly makes more work for supporting those users, and complicates things when they want to install addons or do things in phpMyAdmin.

And lots of other things that it falsely insulates the user from.

I used Fantastico for my initial install back in 2006, so have used it this time around (although it's only 1.3.9) so I can easily transfer info across as required...

Do you recommend going through and removing all the "zen_" off all files after I've finished setting up everything?

[dbltoe]

Using a fantastico install does not mean you and they are tied at the hip for life. In case you didn't read all the posts in this old thread, NO ONE will agree that you should use fantastico to upgrade. Use the files included with the new ZC as a guide for upgrade.

AND.... Why stop at 1.3.9? Why not 1.5.0. Latest and greatest but probably doesn't show as a fantastico option.

[RodG]

I'm another that has never had a problem using fantastico for new installations, and I've no qualms in recommending it to those just starting out and testing the waters.

It should never ever be used for an upgrade.

Cheers
Rod

[schoolboy]

While "one-click-installers" may be easy, and do actually install a program, our view is that people NEW to any software should NOT use these tools.

Our reasons (in the case of zencart):

1. It forces a "common" configuration - particularly on 1.3.9 - where is auto-names the admin folder, usually to zc_admin, making it a good target for hackers. Newbies do not generally understand the importance of a uniquely named admin folder.

2. It does not load the DEMO data, which in our view is very valuable for new users, because the demo data is a very useful set of tools for the initial learning process.

3. It gives novices the impression that the software is "simple" and "easy to manage/customise". Because they have not had the useful experience of a manual install, they do not understand the fundamental structure of their site, and how the file system integrates with a database. Many do not even know that a database is involved.

4. For LOCALISED installs - such as UK - we use additional installation patches (such as Kev Polley's UK template) to ensure that an installation is pre-configured for LOCALISED environments. Fantastico cannot natively apply these localisations, and the work involved after a fantastico install can be considerable, if the site needs "localisation".

5. Performing a MANUAL install is (for new users) a very valuable learning experience, because it forces the new user to understand how the software is structured, and gives them very important knoweldge of the fundamentals of setting up a database, using FTP, making file edits, etc. All this stands the new user in good stead for future management of the program. You just need to look at the vast number of posts for help on this forum for what are BASIC, STANDARD management issues, that would otherwise be obvious to people, had they done a manual install.

6. Novices do not know the importance of a custom template (over-rides) and immediately after using fantastico, they start tinkering with core files.

7. Many users do not know that a subsequent "one-click-upgrade" is a recipe for disaster, and often their first visit to this forum is AFTER they have tried this.


We sometimes use "one-click" installers (when we are very busy and in a hurry), but we are EXPERIENCED and KNOWLEDGEABLE users, so we know the risks and limitations - and in all cases, once the install is done, we do the essential manual alterations (new admin folder name, etc...), to ensure good security.

[dbltoe]

If I may, I'll add that fantastico does not use the zc_install and therefore leaves out the useful docs therein.

[Elemi]

I had a look at my databases last night and noticed that the 1.3.0 does not have the zen_ as a prefix to all the files and the 1.3.9 does, and yet both systems were uploaded/installed via Fantastico so that must have been a change somewhere along the way with their system.

I haven't done my install as 1.5.0 because there were some files/patches that I use and wanted to integrate that aren't available in 1.5.0 yet and I have absolutely no idea how to sql code... I can do the basics of php via dreamweaver, but I am not a programmer and I don't have access to one.