ok not to keep going back and forth on everyone but just want to make sure i update everyone as i go along. what happened was the first tire i created (bajacross) worked when i recreated the entire product from scratch. the second tire (blackwater) was duplicated W/O attributes thinking it would be ok and it wasn't. just recreated it from scratch and worked. something goofy with the category it was in carrying over something......i'm going to redo them all right now hopefully.