Developers minimum requiremet before listing plugin

[shags38]

I am still perplexed as to the lack of criteria set for developers to have their plugins listed for download in Zen Cart - I have folders full of 'not appropriate to my needs' plugins primarily because the description of what the plugin does, how it does it and the advantages of it are in many case just not there, certainly not in anywhere enough detail for the average Joe to ascertain whether it is an appropriate plugin for their needs, or if in fact it will add any advantage at all to the current efficiency of the existing site. It is an absolute minefield.

I have over a period of years downloaded and installed plugins that I regret having done because they screwed up the ZC functionality or the functionality of a an existing plugin that was working fine. (This aspect is I suppose up to the committee to 'test' before approving).

I have suggested this before and it was responded to in the manner of yes we are looking at tightening things up in this area. Some of the descriptions of what a plugin does are simply pathetic - unless you were the developer or a code nerd you would have little or no idea what its objective was and what that objective actually meant - just that the brief description highlights - 'you really need this'.

Then on downloading and reading the 'read me' it also lacks detail, as do the installation instructions.

IMHO there should be a minimum criteria, a form sent to the developer, that insists on minimum standards of understandable descriptions of the who , how, where, why, what etc. Additionally there should be a link to a site using the add-on that shows its functionality on a working site or at least a demo site - this should be mandatory, a minimum requirement, as should installation instructions that can be followed 'simply' by the average Joe, follow the bouncing ball. It is obvious that those who approve these add-ons understand the jargon, the coding paths and other technical stuff so they see the instructions as being OK - why not promulgate the instructions to a 'beta' team of volunteers for comment, not on the plugin itself but of the description of functionality and the ease of following the install instructions (without actually installing it).

At present I rely on looking at who wrote it and the number of downloads as a guide to whether I should entertain a plugin and that process has let me down a few times anyway.

Food for thought (again)

cheers,
Mike

[frank18]

I am still perplexed as to the lack of criteria set for developers to have their plugins listed for download in Zen Cart - I have folders full of 'not appropriate to my needs' plugins primarily because the description of what the plugin does, how it does it and the advantages of it are in many case just not there, certainly not in anywhere enough detail for the average Joe to ascertain whether it is an appropriate plugin for their needs, or if in fact it will add any advantage at all to the current efficiency of the existing site. It is an absolute minefield.

I too recently cleaned out a bucket full of useless mods, main reason being that the description / how-to etc was lacking detail or confusing. So, I agree, you are not alone.

Then on downloading and reading the 'read me' it also lacks detail, as do the installation instructions.

.... which IMHO is the most important bit.

IMHO there should be a minimum criteria, a form sent to the developer, that insists on minimum standards of understandable descriptions of the who , how, where, why, what etc. Additionally there should be a link to a site using the add-on that shows its functionality on a working site or at least a demo site - this should be mandatory, a minimum requirement, as should installation instructions that can be followed 'simply' by the average Joe, follow the bouncing ball. It is obvious that those who approve these add-ons understand the jargon, the coding paths and other technical stuff so they see the instructions as being OK - why not promulgate the instructions to a 'beta' team of volunteers for comment, not on the plugin itself but of the description of functionality and the ease of following the install instructions (without actually installing it).

Sadly not everyone has the time or server space to create a demo site. Absolutely, it is desirable to have something like this but it is not always feasible. Many of the plugins are developed out of necessity, sometimes even under time pressure due to looming manufacturer restriction / requirements. This happened to me when I constructed CSAR (Category Specific Access Restriction), I had to get that show on the road quick smart or face closing one of my stores down. Over a period of time CSAR was refined with better instructions and some bug fixes whilst keeping it up to scratch to cope / comply with ZC code changes in a new ZC version. Surely, I could have kept it under wraps for my personal use only, but I thought that other fellow Zenners could benefit from it.

At present I rely on looking at who wrote it and the number of downloads as a guide to whether I should entertain a plugin and that process has let me down a few times anyway.

Same here. OTOH many mods which have been around since Moby D. was a sardine had code upgrades but nobody ever bothered to dolly up the readme file.

Well written Mike - hopefully your post triggers stricter criteria for the submission of new mods.

My 5 cents for what it's worth.

[torvista]

I agree.

Having a section titled "Plugins" as part of the Zen Cart site misleads people into thinking they are actually plugins and have been subjected to the same strict quality control as the rest of the cart. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Almost nothing is plugin apart from language packs. Caveat emptor.

While many people mash up code to get what they want and think this would be nice for others to use, very few have the time or inclination to clean up their code, document it, and test the install on a vanilla store and write instructions, to ensure it is not your-own-site-specific and installs smoothly for others, before submitting it. A lot of work for a bit of a hack. Something I have tried to do in the past but I don't have the time to submit all the hacks I have done cleaned up like this.

If the criteria was a strict as it should be, there would be few contributions available.

At least, the "Plugins" section should have a serious disclaimer shouting naive/new users in the face about the reality of the situation and every contribution MUST have a support thread and you MUST read it before deciding to try it out out. Common sense.

Anyone who dumps downloaded code from the Plugins straight into their production shop will be offline pretty quick.
My 11th commandment: "Thou shalt try out everything on a test server, always, period."

Anything else is not taking your business seriously.

[shags38]

I agree.

If the criteria was a strict as it should be, there would be few contributions available.

I would agree there would be FEWER contributions available however those not available would likely be those that are not really necessary or very useful to most Zenners generally.

cheers,
Mike

[balihr]

I must admit I very much disagree with this. Although I understand the reasons for requesting higher quality code, you should also look at the other side of the medal. I've contributed several plugins that I made. A LOT of time went into creating the plugins. Then, I had to spend more time to come up with some kind of documentation. Then, I have to spend time supporting the plugin. Well, I don't *have* to, but I feel like it's my way of giving something back to the community. Now, I don't have that much free time - I need to work and make a living. All of these plugins were submitted by people who were willing to share their efforts and give something to the community FOR FREE. If you don't like the free stuff, you're most welcome to create your own plugins OR hire someone to do it for you.

Demo site? Yeah, I have it for my free plugins. And sometimes I watch my server load hitting peaks because of people exploring it. Do I really need to spend more money and get a better server just so anyone could see a demo before installing it? Or should I allow my site to go down because of that? You're welcome to set up your own test server and install a plugin to see what it does.

Documentation with a "guide for dummies"? So, the fact that I had spent XY hours on something that I'm giving away for free isn't enough, now I should spend another XY hours on explaining how to use FTP or how to merge code in two files? I should probably record a video as well...
There's a HUGE difference between a contribution and a paid plugin. I do expect detailed instructions with a plugin that I had to pay for. But, when I'm getting something for free, I'm happy to be able to get it and I don't ask too many questions... Because I got it for free, I'll invest my own time to figure out what it does, how it works and how to get it installed (or I'll get my wallet out and find a developer).

Required support thread? So, the fact that I gave you something for free, makes me obligated to spend even more time to answer all of your questions about it? And, what is worst, people are so freakin' lazy that they don't even want to TRY finding a solution on their own - they just go to the support thread and ask their questions. Why bother spending time to find an answer when you can spend my time to answer it for you? Just recently, I replied with

please try reading the support thread - all of these questions have been answered already.

This is a reply I got that made me shut down the computer and go out for a walk:

It's right! 62 pages of posts are too much to read!

SERIOUSLY?! Not to mention that the simplest Google search would scream right at you with an answer...
You see - answering the same questions over and over again (because people are just too lazy to try searching before asking) make me want to abandon the thread and stop supporting it. It's all on a voluntary basis so you should at least try not to waste the volunteers time...

Now... If you only knew how many beautiful plugins I have made and have sitting in my personal repository... I'd LOVE to share it with the community and I'm sure there would be people who would really benefit from it, but I don't have the time to write a short description about it, let alone the documentation. Just because of that, I'm keeping it all to myself and nobody else can have it. Isn't that a shame?

Now imagine if you apply even more strict rules for sharing plugins - who's gonna contribute anything? Is there anyone out there willing to spend dozens of hours programming and then a dozen more on writing documentation, then uploading screenshots, then setting up a demo on his own server and then giving it away for free?
If any strict rules were adopted, I'm pretty sure the Plugins section would have a handful of plugins there and you'd be complaining how all the good stuff is commercial. Or, the Plugins section would look something like Opencart's Extensions where you pay 15 bucks just to get an "Out of Stock" button...

I do agree with torvista that there should be a SERIOUS disclaimer so that the new users know these are not official Zen Cart plugins, but instead community contributions. There's a lot of obsolete plugins and junk out there so a well written disclaimer (on top of each plugin's page) should exist simply to let people know what a *contribution* is and that it is in fact "donated" code by various authors...

There IS a beautiful phrase that will put all of my novel material above into one single line:
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[torvista]

those not available would likely be those that are not really necessary or very useful to most Zenners generally.

I disagree.
Contributions do not exist based on demand nor what the masses deem important, in fact neither does Zen Cart.

Both exist on the whims/interests and goodwill of the developers.

Evidently the originator of any code change thinks that their mod is absolutely essential to his/her site or they would not have done it in the first place. Whether others agree is extremely variable.

Where there is real demand for a mod to overcome the shortcomings of ZC, if you are lucky in has stepped a commercial developer and that code may well be plugin but you wont see in the Plugins section, nor even allowed to be discussed on this site for debatable reasons.

Personally I think it's time this was shaken up with:
- commercial modules discussed, named and shamed to protect the innocent and also make very plain what is lacking in ZC/the masses want.
- the "Plugins" brutally culled, leaving only the well-written ones from reputable contributors standing
- the majority of the current "plugins" reduced to their real status of a set of hacks downloadable from their support thread and so making it plain that all code is potentially dangerous / "as is" and all bets are off. This would encourage people to post their minor code changes quickly with no fuss and so promote discussion and testing in the community etc, all good things.

that's my 10 centimos.

[shags38]

Sadly not everyone has the time or server space to create a demo site. Absolutely, it is desirable to have something like this but it is not always feasible. Many of the plugins are developed out of necessity, sometimes even under time pressure due to looming manufacturer restriction / requirements. This happened to me when I constructed CSAR (Category Specific Access Restriction), I had to get that show on the road quick smart or face closing one of my stores down. Over a period of time CSAR was refined with better instructions and some bug fixes whilst keeping it up to scratch to cope / comply with ZC code changes in a new ZC version. Surely, I could have kept it under wraps for my personal use only, but I thought that other fellow Zenners could benefit from it.

I agree that under the circumstances such as you described that it is better to have an add-on than not - however I reckon there could be two categories, no three categories of plugins. The first being 'meets full ZC criteria' (tried and proven with quality documentation and has been 'beta' tested); the second being 'doesn't meet full ZC criteria -USE AT OWN RISK'; and the third being 'PAY FOR USE'.

All categories should meet at least one MANDATORY criteria of a support thread, actually supported by the developer, not simply 'I/We developed it and we encourage the ZC community to support each other ....' as it is with some plugins, ie. developer opts out and leaves others to do the solving of any issues only responding when pressure is applied - this is typical of at least one major contributor in ZC - (I personally had to shame them on their Facebook page to get a response).

Not only should add-ons be approved as they are but the members of the 'approval committee' should periodically brows the support threads to ensure the developer is in fact responding to requests for assistance - some support threads I have visited have posts months old that have not been responded to - such add-ons should be suspended and a post put in the support thread by admin saying that the developer is not responding in the thread so that users do not leave a post and be left hanging, they may then elect to ask their question in a mainstream thread and hope another Zenner aside from the developer has an answer. The developer then should be contacted by Admin requesting an explanation.

Is this more work for admin - yes. Will it provide a better a happier group of Zenners and reduce the amount of frustration often aimed unfairly on Zen Cart as a platform - yes. Would it be a good use of limited resources - IMHO yes. Could the workload be spread - yes. Engage Zenners, a 'beta' team of dedicated ZC users who would be willing to do some of the leg work and then submit anything noteworthy in a useful format to the admin members - ZC is a community afterall, right?

ZC should encourage developers who can produce plugins and apps that will help bring Zen Cart up to the level of some other eCommerce platforms primarily in areas of 'visual' presentation and imagery, the 'pretty' side of things as well as higher quality marketing tools. This is where the 'pay for use' category comes in. We as Zenners cannot expect everything for free, we cannot expect that among Zen Cart users there are people that albeit have the expertise buy as you pointed out Frank do not necessarily have the time nor resources to develop plugins to either the sophistication or functionality that may be desired. Zen Cart does the best job as far as a secure and stable platform goes, the best and it is economical to use in that all but a very few plugins are free, however the latter can also have its shortcomings. I think a blend of the historical ZC contributors free plugins and a selection of pay for use plugins and apps would satisfy a greater development of great eCommerce program. I sometimes get the impression that ZC developers (contributors) are competing with each other rather than working cooperatively, it is almost like the scorecard on the plugins page, a race to the top to get the badge of honor :)

Collaboration in development is often very important - there is no doubt the expertise among this community to develop just about anything if there was a system of collaboration between the existing talents - I personally do not see many signs of that in here. I am going to propose a new thread be added to the forum 'Plugin Developers Corner' where primarily developers can bounce ideas off each other - it would have a sub thread that Zenners could make requests for new plugins of improvements on existing ones - totally different to the wish list thread. Maybe it might act as a catalyst for new ideas and collaborations. (if not then scrap it after a while, but at least try it out).

I realize all of this requires the one resource that most involved in Zen Cart have very little of = Time. Maybe more community 'engagement' could be nurtured to develop 'teams' of interested Zenners to do some of the leg work, be thread monitors (not moderators) - it seems to work to some degree in Etsy and other shop sites.

cheers,
Mike

[mc12345678]

One. I think we just found our "beta" tester... :) That is because of the all of the above, right. And make sure that you've completed the testing in the next week so that the plugin can be issued. While you're at it spell check the instructions, read every piece/page, if it's not right or the "best" then all the work that has been done to make this app do as much as it does will be dumped because the originator hasn't pre-prepped the software package adequately for possibly the one(s) that need more instruction than less in order to install the software.

<rant?>
I would say in part that the above requested action if implemented in whole would 1) significantly delay if not prevent the issue of additional plugins which would then dramatically decrease the addition of potentially beneficial plugins, 2) it may actually increase the level of support to programmers as reported elsewhere recently the level of development support has decreased, thus if members of the community want added functionality they may have to contribute in order to sustain the giant system just proposed, and/or 3)

On the flip side, as an individual that has downloaded such "countless" plugins after not understanding the writeup of such plugins, what was done to improve the situation? Seems to me that by simply walking away without doing something about the confusion or functionality that such a download and description remains confusing for others. This leads to a similar discussion of the expectations of those that download and use/try a plugin (whether it truly is a plugin or any portion of a modification of ZC code). So, in the same vein users should be required to provide feedback about a plugin, and further that feedback should be constructive in a nature not just a "yeah I installed it" type response. To take it further, some form of tracking of the quantity of different plugins downloaded and if constructive feedback is not provided then the user is not permitted to download any different plugin until some form of contribution is provided back. Can’t tell you how surprising the lack of feedback from those using ZC really is. Plugin that was modified to support ZC 1.5.4 nearly 11 months ago. An error was accidentally introduced by a misspelling of a variable… Result, detailed pertinent information was not logged into the database… Know who said something? Someone that had a vested interest in the operation as they had provided compensation for other changes (willing to offer them back to the community) and personally went through either significant self-testing or monitored the results of the plugin to find the error. Did any single user of the program provide such feedback? Nope… Not a one.
Another plugin recently modified, individual downloads it, contrary to all description what seems like throughout the forum (maybe I’ve just read enough and had enough life experience to figure it out) installs it on a live server, says that’s crap and then supposedly “uninstalls” the software. They later say in an unrelated thread that they only uninstalled the SQL (obvious right, because there is an uninstall SQL function even though there is direction on how to uninstall), but they leave all/most of the files intact and don’t restore back to the previous condition. They rebuild. Ask about what the issue is or was with the installation and if not mistaken it was a wrong version installation process and a half merge (back to the just upload it and it’ll work thought/concept) indicating that truly the software wasn’t installed, but instead considered a hunk of junk before being installed…

I know that I have at least two “add-ons” that are only in the forum and not packaged as any type of fileset, for at least one of the very reasons that balihr has indicated not publishing other modifications… Documentation, packaging, support… At least in the “thread” I identified the lack of the other necessary considerations… Do/will most find each of them beneficial? Couldn’t say… It seems to be part of why so much has been removed from the core code. Not everyone needs everything that can be done… Instructions? Ha… Who reads those anymore? I feel for authors such as Anne who pretty much has to answer the same question time and time again, even when the question is asked a second time on the same page… The answer: It’s in the manual.

Add to the difficulty of preparing the package to offer some semblance of quality, seems like every time I go to upload a plugin, even after trying the last full installation on a vanilla install to verify that in the simplest store that it will work there is always something that gets forgotten, lost, or omitted... Whether it’s in the software description, the open source license, something unique about the install or upgrade script… I even try to do my own demo upload just to be sure that I fill in and write the desired information. After a bit, I find that I’m 1) excited because maybe what I provide will save someone else time as they either fully use or in a modified fashion use the software that I’ve chosen to share, 2) am aggravated that I have just spent the last 5 days perfecting just the submission portion of the software (having no impact on the operation of the software), 3) bored with this “end of process” action and have lost interest in making sure that it is right and just want to get it out there… I certainly don’t make plans to burden the software reviewer(s) with other updates/changes, but sometimes things happen… I’m sorry… But, I say in an open source community the provider(s) of something can do only so much with their time and energy as an individual; however, it seems that the masses could provide a little and make a huge difference…. Starting to sound like asking for a donation to a local charity, but it is in some way very similar… A little from everyone goes a long way, and unfortunately it also seems that many are “too scared” to do anything… (Human nature generally speaking… First thing suggested in a medical emergency? Identify someone, point at them and direct them to make the call to initiate emergency response… If, however, one calls out “someone help me!” the response is negligible… Who should act? Not me, I’m going to keep going on with my business or maybe stand and watch… )

Anyways… </rant?>

[mc12345678]

II am going to propose a new thread be added to the forum 'Plugin Developers Corner' where primarily developers can bounce ideas off each other - it would have a sub thread that Zenners could make requests for new plugins of improvements on existing ones - totally different to the wish list thread. Maybe it might act as a catalyst for new ideas and collaborations. (if not then scrap it after a while, but at least try it out).

Umm... Put it where you want, but there is already Code Collaboration as an area to post... As far as competition? Yeah, I sometimes feel that way, but at the same time the "love" of those same individuals to offer assistance... Sorta' a love/hate relationship, but I believe/find it to be healthy...

Again, improvements on existing plugins??? To me that seems to be a no brainer, the forum for the plugin... As for deleting/closing other plugins if I understood the previous message correctly, please... So a person passes away... Sorry not supported any longer? Close shop??? Again, community stand up and take action... Not everyone has the time (wish I had/made more available) and then there are those that can't... But we don't live in the star trek universe...

[balihr]

All categories should meet at least one MANDATORY criteria of a support thread, actually supported by the developer, not simply 'I/We developed it and we encourage the ZC community to support each other ....' as it is with some plugins, ie. developer opts out and leaves others to do the solving of any issues only responding when pressure is applied - this is typical of at least one major contributor in ZC - (I personally had to shame them on their Facebook page to get a response).

I don't know which developer you're talking about, but I really don't care. What I managed to read from this is:
nobody forced you to use a plugin that they gave away for free, then you wanted free support and were not getting it so you decided to publicly shame them because they didn't want to help you for free on a site where you're selling something and making profit.
So, because of your request, they had to put their paid work aside (the one that pays bills), had to pause working for people who pay them and come here to answer your questions for free?
Call me crazy, but does that really sound OK to you?

Not only should add-ons be approved as they are but the members of the 'approval committee' should periodically brows the support threads to ensure the developer is in fact responding to requests for assistance - some support threads I have visited have posts months old that have not been responded to - such add-ons should be suspended and a post put in the support thread by admin saying that the developer is not responding in the thread so that users do not leave a post and be left hanging, they may then elect to ask their question in a mainstream thread and hope another Zenner aside from the developer has an answer. The developer then should be contacted by Admin requesting an explanation.

It's fine with me. Take a nice, usable FREE plugin and ban it just because SOME people don't know how to use it and the author doesn't have the time to support it (for free). Why would the user spend more time on research or even find a developer and pay for the task? No, just ban the plugin, that's in the best interest of the community. Forget about the fact that there are hundreds or even thousands of users who didn't have any problems...

Is this more work for admin - yes. Will it provide a better a happier group of Zenners and reduce the amount of frustration often aimed unfairly on Zen Cart as a platform - yes. Would it be a good use of limited resources - IMHO yes. Could the workload be spread - yes. Engage Zenners, a 'beta' team of dedicated ZC users who would be willing to do some of the leg work and then submit anything noteworthy in a useful format to the admin members - ZC is a community afterall, right?

And who would benefit from this exactly?
Zen Cart IS a community, in fact one of the best communities ever. Please show me another 100% free platform with such a community. And don't say Etsy or Shopify or any other commercial solutions, please... Have you tried posting on Joomla's forums? Please do give it a try and let me know how many quotes via PM you will get and how many actually helpful public replies.
Next, let's not forget that it is a volunteers community. The way I see it, there's a community where members are dependent on one another, and then there's a community where one does not depend on the other. In this community, the plugin authors do not depend on users. I built and released a free plugin. You downloaded the plugin and enhanced your site. I did not benefit, but you did. And now you want to force me into helping you?

ZC should encourage developers who can produce plugins and apps that will help bring Zen Cart up to the level of some other eCommerce platforms primarily in areas of 'visual' presentation and imagery, the 'pretty' side of things as well as higher quality marketing tools. This is where the 'pay for use' category comes in. We as Zenners cannot expect everything for free, we cannot expect that among Zen Cart users there are people that albeit have the expertise buy as you pointed out Frank do not necessarily have the time nor resources to develop plugins to either the sophistication or functionality that may be desired. Zen Cart does the best job as far as a secure and stable platform goes, the best and it is economical to use in that all but a very few plugins are free, however the latter can also have its shortcomings. I think a blend of the historical ZC contributors free plugins and a selection of pay for use plugins and apps would satisfy a greater development of great eCommerce program. I sometimes get the impression that ZC developers (contributors) are competing with each other rather than working cooperatively, it is almost like the scorecard on the plugins page, a race to the top to get the badge of honor :)

And that's where Zen Cart would turn into Opencart. You would get a few (literally a few) free plugins and a whole bunch of paid plugins. The idea here is to share and support each other. Everyone chips in as much as they can. If there were a paid plugins section, everyone would do their best to push their plugins there instead of the free version. I mean, if I got $5 for each time my plugins were used, I'd written a 30 page installation manual, followed by a 25 minute YouTube video... And I'd probably have a beautiful swimming pool in my backyard...

I realize all of this requires the one resource that most involved in Zen Cart have very little of = Time. Maybe more community 'engagement' could be nurtured to develop 'teams' of interested Zenners to do some of the leg work, be thread monitors (not moderators) - it seems to work to some degree in Etsy and other shop sites.

Exactly - it seeks out more time. And you know time equals money. Everyone here sacrifices their time to help out fellow Zenners (when instead we could be out there making money or relaxing with our families). And then comes someone saying it's not enough and we should double the time here so that other people could benefit even more. Okay... Sure... I'll be the first to spend 8 hours per day here - as soon as I see all of those shops changing all of their prices to $0.00. Sounds reasonable to me.

Now, Mike... Don't put all the burden of the developers' backs. You ARE a part of the community, no? You have your server, right? Create a demo site. Install 5-10 plugins on that site. You're not a developer so you (probably) can't do detailed installation instructions, but never mind - write detailed descriptions about each of the plugins. Make sure you mention everything the plugin is capable of and include screenshots. Post the details here in the forum - either in the plugin's support thread, or you create a thread. Leave the demo site on and allow public access, post links to the demo so that hundreds of people from all over the world can visit, browse and learn about those plugins. That way people will know EXACTLY what the plugin is capable of and whether it will suit their needs or not. And, don't forget to subscribe to those threads so that you can reply when someone comes and asks "can that plugin do this" and you know it's the second screenshot you posted... You reply to questions about functionality, and let the developer reply questions about bugs or feature requests. Heck, please make sure you do that for one of my plugins, I sure could use that kind of help...