Things every New Zenner needs to know

[lefthandedgoth]

* What version of Zen Cart are you using?
1.3.8 or whatever the latest one is

* Has your site been upgraded? When? From what version(s)?

A few years ago I tried OS Commerce and ran away screaming. So now I'm trying zencart. I know it's a derivative but my evil friends claim it's better. We'll see.

* What addons have you installed? When?

nothing, but I downloaded some. No clue what to do with them now. Will I break stuff by installing them? How do I go about doing that?

* In what ways is your site customized or different from a brand new uncustomized install?

I'm coming from an Etsy store. I want it to look and act a lot like my Etsy store. But this is erm. Really confusing. So it's not changed or customized yet at all. I also like the layout of American Science and Surplus's website [sciplus.com].

I would like the product pages to have a somewhat different look than the "welcome customer" page.

I would like the categories to be across the top and not on the sidebar.

I did click "no sidebar on the right side" but after looking at other shops I might instead change that to "no sidebar on the left side" so people will not have the speed hump of the sidebar in the way of their reading.

* If you're encountering display/layout problems, post your site URL* so it can be seen in action.

not live. I don't know how to make it live, but then I don't have any changes made to it, because I'm such a n00b

* If you're encountering problems that could be related to your server or hosting company, include the name of your hosting company (not their URL).

nope, the problems are all mine

* HAVE YOU LOOKED IN THE FAQ AREA for answers to your question? (ie: a search for your error message or what you want to edit/change, etc)

yeah and most of the people are pretty cool, but there are some pretty smarmy devs out there who expect that everyone should have some kind of knowledge about the back end of this. I confess I didn't read all 66 pages of this thread. I was hoping that the first message would contain a link to the tutorial they were talking about putting together in June of 2006, when this thread was started. Haven't come across it yet.

* Have you searched the FORUM for your error message or for answers to the question you're asking?

I'm still looking. I haven't got any error messages yet coz I haven't got that far yet.

* WHEN did the problem "start"? How does that compare with other events of your hosting company, changes you've made to your site files/addons, or your admin settings, etc?

Well, first of all it started when I downloaded ZenCart. I couldn't figure out how to make it work with Blue Host. So I poked around on the control panel and found out that if I run Simple Scripts from the control panel it would install it all by itself. I'm sure that this is going to cause some problems because now I have one version (still in the wrapper) on the computer, and the other one on my web host.

I didn't see any kind of button labelled "here's where you download your live store so you can fool with it safely offline" or another button offering me the option of uploading my destructive changes to the to-be-live store.

Two major questions:

one, can I use ProPay as my credit card processor. I got hosed by Authorize.net a few years ago and refuse point blank to repeat that experience. looks like the answer is no. I would love to change the option of whom to use as my merchant account. So for now it looks like it's going to be good ol' PayPal, with the call center in India, yay.

two, trying to figure out how to make shipping costs work on a per-item basis, like on Etsy. For instance, if I sell a heavy jar candle for $8 and it weighs over 13 oz, it's going to be shipped by priority mail (I don't do parcel post or UPS or FedEx, just USPS first class and priority). If I sell a $45 necklace that weighs 3 oz, it's going to cost $3 to ship. So working out by weight or by final cost would be very hard to calculate an accurate rate. So I'm looking at how to do it where I say, Item Candle is $7 to ship, or $5 with another item. Item Necklace is $3 to ship or .50 with another item. Item Incense is $4 to ship or .50 with another item. So if someone buys Items Candle, Necklace, and Incense, the shipping will calculate at $8 ($7 +.50 +.50) and not, say, $4 [incense] + $5 [candle] + .50 [necklace].

* If this is your first store, have you tested all aspects of transactions before going live?

No. I want to learn how to make it look more or less like I want it to look before I start adding products. I can put in some fake items to stub that aspect out, but I can't figure out how to apply a template. I can tweak as I go, but I'd like to goth up the basic look and feel a little.

I last had programming in 1985 when I took "Basic" on a Radio Shack computer. I admit I had a little problem with that.

I don't understand html other than <br> and <p>. I have tried to learn but it just slips out of my brain. I bought a book on html a few years ago, it would be useful if I were going to write a website I suppose. But why write one when there are templates?

I've been looking suspiciously at Joomla. I might try it. Although when my business partner said we needed a CMS I thought he was talking about the guys with the red vests at WalMart. Figured it out since then.

I know that "css" stands for "cascading style sheets" but don't really understand what dish detergent and bedspreads have to do with computers. You can use Dawn dish soap on your laundry to get out grease, but Cascade should stay away from clothing and sheets. Try Tide or Gain...

Ning and GoogleDocs confuse me. I grok Yahoo groups and some of the more BBS-like forums. This forum is bloated but I think I can navigate it. I don't understand Facebook and had to have my teenager teach me MySpace. (Why anyone would want to use them is beyond me.) "Blog" sounds like something rude left floating in a toilet.

I'm a 39-year-old commercial artist who is not a programmer. Although, in the early 90s I was a Linux SysAdmin. So I can kind of wade around through the back end of things if I have a roadmap. Furthermore... I'm married to the guy who wrote Pan and Transmission, and HE had problems getting around in OS Commerce. He flat out refuses to help me with ZenCart because he doesn't want to fool with anything related to OS Commerce.

I am not stupid. I just don't know where the hell to start. If I could buy a program that would act just like Etsy I would love to know where to get one. But evidently this is just as much of a solution as anything else out there, so if someone can point me to some man pages (I'm NOT paying for the eBook until I know whether or not I'm going to keep this as my shop software). And when I do buy the book, I'm getting a hard copy so I can keep it in my bathroom. I understand "you can't Grep a dead tree", but there isn't a lot of command-line interface with zencart.

What would be helpful is something (a file? a picture?) that will allow me to quickly get overviews on what I'm looking at so that I can manage my time better. I need to spend a lot of time making and marketing my products, not hours and hours poring over some jargonesque and over-my-head forum posts. I don't know what I'm looking at.

As I used to tell my own lusers, "I'll hand you the paper but I won't wipe your a$$." So would someone please steer me in the direction of the ladies' room? Coz at the moment, trying to parse the interface and forums seems a bit like trying to find a clean bathroom at the state fair. And the instructions are akin to the graffiti written on the wall in eyeliner, nail polish, and sharpie... and excrement, sometimes.

[ALiepinieks]

I have to agree, it is demanding, and time consuming, and complicated, and sometimes even uses too many acronyms. I also agree that in the absence of a "getting started" document (which I suspect most of us wouldn't read anyway), it has the propensity to make people fall on their ######## after realising what they've gotten themselves into.

So yes; you do need at the very least some idea of what CSS is, and how to customise it (even if you're using an online source for your syntax) and perhaps even some background in PHP and HTML if you want to "Be all you can be with ZC".

But then I wonder if this age of technology has just mesmerised us all into a trance-like state, where we don't think for ourselves anymore but simply point and shoot? The number of VERY intelligent people I see doing seemingly moronic things with technology (like not reading the instructions, or not reading numerous warnings) makes me believe that we treat it differently from everything else in this world.

Case in point - Let's say you heard of a new contraption that had just hit the market, stating that with just a bit of sheet metal, some vinyl and a few tools you could actually build your own car for nothing. Would any of us really be so naive as to believe we wouldn't need any mechanical skills, or that it could even be done? Would we really think that it might actually pass any standards required to be roadworthy, or safe? The issue here is, SOME of us already know if we're useless with cars or things of a mechanical nature, and therefore wouldn't take the risk. Instead we go to the car yard, buy one like most others and cry about the money we spent later.

The case of Zen-Cart however is not so outlandish - With no understanding of basic HTML, CSS and PHP you will still benefit; it's just that your desire for a specific end-result might exceed your initial capability. I do believe however that for anyone with a little patience, and a little time, it is perfectly suited to all the DIY'ers out there, and while I would like to see products like this marketed less and explained more, I also believe we're all a little like that "deer in the headlights" when it comes to software, hardware, or just technology in general.


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[lefthandedgoth]

Er, huh?

Now if I've got you wrong, I apologize, but I'm not sure exactly what your intent is with your post.

I keep reading over and over how new (and probably no longer) users ask for help and a guide, and constantly get cut down for their pains.

Someone on another thread (I've got about 40 open at the mo, sorry lost track) cut down another user saying that "some guy offers a free house. Another man shows up to see if he wants it. There's a stack of building material but the man walks away, sad because there aren't any instructions or even a picture of what the house is supposed to look like."

Like that's not insane. I mean, you might end up with a mansion, sure, or you might wind up with a leaking roof, no windows, a door that doesn't stay shut, or worse. I just moved out of a house very similar to that, so THAT was a lousy example. I didn't build it, either, we'd bought it from a filpper -- but I learned what NOT to do and built one much better. Learning curve, yeah, but at least you know what you want it to look like starting out. And can estimate the time involved per task, which helped me know when to hire someone else, when to buy off the rack, and when to get my power tools out and do the work myself.

Now would I build a car? No. but I might build a killer robot, especially if it was going to be a good return on the time spent.

Someone else wrote, "would you buy a car without reading the manual first to see what all the buttons and switches do?" Uh, yeah, I don't think I've ever looked in the user manual for any car I've owned. I would DRIVE the car first and see how it performed. My current car didn't come with a manual, but when the little light with the weird symbol came on I asked the dealer what it meant and they told me, and didn't make fun of me for having my previous car for 15 years.

Still another person wrote, "would you need to know how a car works in order to change the tires?" Well, no, but if the tail light kept going out I might like a copy of the wiring schematic to follow along with my flashlight and fingers to see if there's a short or a loose wire. And if there was some weird grinding noise coming from one of the wheels, a diagram on what it should look like would let me know if I should have it towed or if it was OK to drive it to a mechanic.

So I'm not sure if your post was a better disguised attempt to cut down a noob, since I'm not interested in spending hours hunched over my laptop trying to figure out some things, or a genuine moan of mutual annoyance that stems from your own experience. It could have been both.

I will not take the bait that you're offering that people get soft from technology. We've had technological improvements since the wheel was first tried out and people started planting crops intentionally. these things breed specialization, not weakness. Overall technology improves the buying and building power of humanity, health, longevity, and I will say technology might not cause happiness but it sure can enhance a dance club.

So to the guy above who doesn't want to build the house, how could he hire a GC to complete it when he can't get an estimate on what other supplies he needs, or learn how long it will take? To the potential buyer for the car that's so "advanced" it can't be figured out without poring over a 400-page tome, maybe she'll decide to ride a Vespa instead. For the person who might like to be a shade tree mechanic and not a full-time Pep Boy, well the Haynes manuals can help you know whether you just need to clean your battery or if it's time to have your vehicle dragged to the garage. These comparisons are stupid and insulting.

I'm a specialist in something else that is not ZenCart. I do pretty well with my trade and get paid a decent wage that shows me what I do is good quality. I like to tinker, and I like shade tree auto repairs. I have no interest in getting grease under my nails trying to understand how the engine works, but I can recognize the starter if I see a picture or schematic of it.

If I wanted to install a nitro system in my Saab I can find schematics online; why is it so hard to learn how to operate this piece of software?

I might like to have a new hair style but that doesn't mean I want to spend months in beauty school to learn how to cut, color, and perm it. But I would want to look at a magazine picture and take it to someone for the cut, and watch a video or read a library book to learn how to apply hair dye, and maybe get out hot curlers to test drive the curls before going for the perm.

Just because I don't want to spend a hundred hours learning ZenCart *before deciding to commit to it* doesn't mean that I wouldn't spend, maybe 8 hours on it. That's a complete work day for many people. I certainly don't expect to be able to master it but I would hope that by the end of a work day I would have something other than 40 tabs open to search through and something that looks like a thinly veiled insult to my one post. Why did you spend the energy on that, what did it accomplish? Did you further your knowledge or anyone else's? No. It's just another useless comment that does not help a frustrated potential user and now something that someone else will have to wade through.

At least with my post, people who feel like I do can go YEAH! someone else who feels like crap from trying to fool with this thing! And they are people who, given the way that one question equals MAYBE some help but also WILL involve being insulted, will probably ultimately decide that they have better things to do with their time than mess with ZenCart.

You're dead right about them marketing it the way they do. The claim that you don't need any programming knowledge is absolutely false. The idea that the forums are some kind of stand-in for what should be an obvious knowledge base (especially with the lack of a "be nice" policy) is lazy and irresponsible. I am going to poke around a little more but at this point, if what I have to look forward to every time is a jab or a jibe, this isn't really my definition of "support".

[ALiepinieks]

my point was simply that occasionally we expect too much out of technology, simply because society tells us we shouldn't have to understand it. once again, you DON'T need programming or HTML or CSS knowledge for Zen-Cart to work for you, as a) it works out of the box, and b) there are numerous free templates for those not happy with this. unfortunately many of us want something special, and this always comes at a price - whether the price is $ or time is up to us.

if i didn't know how to at least put oil in my car, or check the water, or the tyre pressure then i probably shouldn't be driving one unless i have enough money to pay someone else to do that. hence the analogy about the car. as for your analogy about the house, it's not quite fair. these guys are promoting that house and delivering, it's just the furniture that is missing and that is entirely subjective.

and regarding the "8hr" approach, you sound to me like someone who knows more than the average joe, hence i would have thought even you would understand that 8hrs simply aint going to cut it learning any product with such vast application possibilities. it would be nice, but i don't think there will EVER be a product that can be learnt in 8hrs with the scope of ZC.

then again, all of this is one mas opinion : )

cheers
andrejs

[lefthandedgoth]

sorry that was probably way over the top.

I'm REALLY frustrated. poo.

[Website Rob]

The claim that you don't need any programming knowledge is absolutely false.

Actually, that part is true as long as is willing to work without much customization. But even then, one needs to take the time to figure out how to work the Admin side of things and that can be challenging for most.

I do pretty well with my trade and get paid a decent wage that shows me what I do is good quality.

And you probably invested a fair amount of your time and possibly money in getting to that point. This is also true of people who specialize in Zen Cart or most any of the popular Open Source scripts available. For many though, they have neither the time nor inclination to learn how to customize and would rather hire a Contractor to do what needs to be done whilst they can focus on running their Business.


For those that do want to customize and/or tinker, it does help to have a basic understanding of HTML and CSS. There is no way around that and again, that applies to any of the popular Open Source scripts available. You cannot create a Web page without using HTML and improving the presentation of the Web page is dependent upon CSS. To go even further in customizing requires knowledge of PHP, JavaScript and even some MySQL.

People buy Computers and don't think about the fact it comes in two parts; hardware and software. The mechanical part of the computer is no good without an Operating System. You can use your computer as soon as you turn it on, after doing some minor paperwork, if you will, regarding OS setup. Now many will not take the time to learn the mechanical side of their computer but many will learn how to do customizing to the OS side of things. Perhaps they will have someone help them or they will pay someone.


No script is perfect but with Open Source scripts one does have the opportunity to customize things according to their knowledge, inclination to learn or dollars willing to spend. One of the drawbacks of Zen Cart is that it has "so many options" and, by nature, the more options available the higher level of complexity involved. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to each individual. As to the attitude presented by those providing answering posts, that is just life in general and applies to any Forum on any subject. Some replies are better than others but for the most part, many are involved in this Forum that take the time to help others; and in a nice way.

[kelvyn]

the trouble is, you're idea of organisation, standard tasks and common features is probably different to mine, so who's right? would you prefer a bloated product that fits every possible niche

But I think his point is that it CAN be done.

Installing Gallery or Wordpress is literally a 3 minute operation, as is installing or updating a template, theme or plugin.
I can install Wordpress or Gallery andsearch for, preview and install plugins and themes and completely customise the colours, title, layout, boxes etc, without ever touching one single line of code.

It CAN be done. And a tiny tiny percentage get very annoyed because that tiny percentage want it to be backwards compatible with their quirky and obsolete browser, and it's not.

But whereas Wordpress and Gallery think along the lines of:
"For 99.5% of people, this is a huge improvement, sorry if we lose .5%", it seems (and correct me if I'm wrong), that Zen Cart thinks along the opposite lines. Ajax, Javascript, Flash... it powers almost everything you do every day. But there seems a fear of it at Zen, as if shutting out the 3 people in the world who want to use Netscape 3 on their Commodore Amiga would be the end of the world.

Just my 2p.

[lefthandedgoth]

One of the drawbacks of Zen Cart is that it has "so many options" and, by nature, the more options available the higher level of complexity involved. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to each individual. As to the attitude presented by those providing answering posts, that is just life in general and applies to any Forum on any subject. Some replies are better than others but for the most part, many are involved in this Forum that take the time to help others; and in a nice way.

That was a nice way, thank you.

The problem isn't that there are so many options. the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much organization in the support of the options.

Someone once compared all the operating systems of the day: the PC users were college kids living in apartments, the Apple users were yuppies living in gated communities, and the Linux/Users were a disorganized herd of hippies living in yurts, geodesic domes, and VW minibuses.

The various shopping cart programs out there remind me of those comparisons, although ZenCart and OS Commerce might be more aptly described as post-apocalyptic disaster zones which would be at home in the worlds of Max Headroom or ThunderDome. Yeah, the technology is theoretically there, and some people can traverse it (and do it well) but a freakin' instruction manual would sure be useful to most of those who would like to use it.

So instead of banging my head against the wall any further, I looked at lots and lots of ZenCart sites. Most of which are fUgly. So then I looked at my host's control panel and explored other shopping carts, one of which costs nine grand a year. I could OWN a personal programmer for nine grand a year. Well, another programmer, I've already got one around here somewhere in a dark room, absorbed in his little glowing box.

Agora Cart has a very, very nice forum. There are sticky threads for new users that appear to make sense. Right on top! You can download their user manual as a PDF. There's a place where you can buy a gold membership for $55 one time cost, which lets you have access to do more dangerous things. I was able to write a pre-sale email regarding my per-item shipping cost question, which I hope to have answered by this time tomorrow.

ZenCart does have many options. I remember my husband screaming about how bad the code was when we were trying to configure them in OS Commerce. It was so bad that we still use it as a comparison when he's complaining about someone else's code ("the surfer guy" picture we kept trying to remove... argh). Yet I did approach it with an open mind, coz a lot can happen in 5 years.

Or not.

But thanks for the reply, it was a nice one.

[kdays]

So instead of banging my head against the wall any further, I looked at lots and lots of ZenCart sites. Most of which are fUgly.

There are lots of VERY nice Zen Cart stores around. I think that's the beauty of Zen Cart - they don't have to be cookie cutouts of each other because the templating system is so flexible.

You can see my Gallery here: kerrinhardy.com/zen-cart/zen-cart-gallery

Cheers
K

[lefthandedgoth]

Just to make this really, really clear, maybe even to the dude who started this thread in June of 2006.

How this thread can still be active and yet have achieved essentially nothing in 40 months and 66 pages is amazing.

A manual is not a nice thing. It is an essential thing. "The" book offered for sale doesn't seem to have an index or table of contents posted anywhere. It also costs too much for the download version when one is still trying to evaluate how much time, if any, one is going to spend with ZenCart, or if one is going to look for something else.

In lieu of that, try sticky threads in the forum so people who don't know what they're doing can go to those threads and read the instructions. In plain English.

Enable people and you will have many happy users. Cripple them and they either fight to understand, or go find something else. Probably a lot depends on the amount of time they can spend doing this and whether they feel like they have any other options.

I suspect that most of the developers who linger in the forums, waiting to answer questions, are not merchants. They are developers, with specialized knowledge. Some lurk in order to show how great they are. Some wait to see if they can be helpful. How many of them are engaged in a shop of their own?

It is obvious that this is not a store program written by a store owner. If you would like an example of one that is, explore Jewelry Designer Manager Pro -- a little mom and pop business with a really great piece of software written on, of all things, Microsoft Access.

Store owners have a lot of paperwork to do, and if the owner is also the manufacturer, there is a lot of other work to do. Not making product costs money. Taking up too much time with what should be a pretty standard install process (including customization options, like "your logo goes here") cuts into the store owner's day. If they are at work, at their store, trying to handle customers in the front room while simultaneously trying to browse the forums for answers in the back room, this process can take literally DAYS.

A lot of shop owners are pretty good at following directions or plans. Many of them have gone through the process of making a business plan, forming a corporation, creating their business image, and other fairly complex tasks. Yet the process of creating an online shopping cart is not something that is intuitive.

We are not stupid, ignorant, or lazy because we don't know the mysterious ways of the electron and how it works within the case called a computer. The ability to turn on a computer and choose what software to use to achieve certain tasks is not something to be made fun of.

Why do the developers assume that it's some crime to want a better user interface? Why do they not understand that a hard to use program (especially for the sophistication ZenCart claims to have) makes them look BAD to the masses who might otherwise want to use it?

Yes, you look bad. You developers come off as if you are unable to recognize the needs of people who are otherwise providing you with goods and services. People who sell you shoes, clothing, music (well, you probably steal music, so make sure you tip the guy who wrote your torrent program). Everything you buy online was put there by someone who is probably NOT using ZenCart... because it was too hard for them to figure it out. Why bother to write an interface for the merchants, or even a comprehensive set of instructions? Could it be that it's just a lot more satisfying to sit in front of your little glowing boxes, smirking at us?

Not a great image, really. But it's the top-level people in the "team" who are the worst offenders. The guy who started this thread over three years ago evidently had an intention of writing a user manual and then failed to do it. And there are still people today with the same basic complaint of "I don't understand what I'm doing" here on page 66 that there were on page one. The basic request for documentation and a simple user checklist for installing and customization popped up just a few posts later on page 2 or 3. So it's not like this is NEW to you guys. What's wrong with you?

This is a big problem and a glaring flaw. It should be so easy to task one of your staff or volunteers to just DO it. If someone was working on that full-time instead of being smarmy in the forums, you could have it completely done within a few weeks. By the end of the year if you started today, I'd bet.

Merchants and business owners are often very good at following instructions for things. Why not try us out with a comprehensive set of instructions written in human, not programmer, and see if the "huh" factor goes down somewhat. I know that means going through all the comments, but the person who started this thread DID ask for them. Follow through with it or kill the thread, because it's massively frustrating to think that someone out there gives a crap about the intended user when all they want to do is provide an opportunity to feel smug about their programming savvy.