Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeking
A client wants to force all customers to use COWOA, removing the login and create account options. This means the login page is no longer needed and we can skip right to checkout. I thought I could do this by changing the filename of
define('FILENAME_LOGIN', 'login');
to
define('FILENAME_LOGIN', 'no_account');
Worked as expected on the cart side, but then also redirected the admin login to a non-existant no_account page. Is there a way to accomplish this while not breaking the admin login?
There is a better way of doing this without allowing a user to bypass your define... by hand typing in 'main_page=login' or 'create_account' so on, bypassing the no_account page. to do it right, you need a observer to trap the account and login creation pages.
thought I had a switch setup for this... most of not included it... once I can get GIT to work, I'll pass the changes along..
Adding the switch to the login section of the header and setting up the observer... which will be used again later on to setup free downloads... the ever ghosting checkout by email only one.
Reason for the observer... to catch the bypass hack attempts! Using a switch to turn on/off the account system without modifying many different pages.
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davewest
There is a better way of doing this without allowing a user to bypass your define... by hand typing in 'main_page=login' or 'create_account' so on, bypassing the no_account page. to do it right, you need a observer to trap the account and login creation pages.
thought I had a switch setup for this... most of not included it... once I can get GIT to work, I'll pass the changes along..
Adding the switch to the login section of the header and setting up the observer... which will be used again later on to setup free downloads... the ever ghosting checkout by email only one.
Reason for the observer... to catch the bypass hack attempts! Using a switch to turn on/off the account system without modifying many different pages.
Cool.. As always Dave happy for your hands in this.. If you pass the changes on, I'll incorporate into the repo.. I've partially finished merging some of the last changes you sent to me.. Need to finish testing and get everything submitted..
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
I spent all day (more than 8 weary hours) comparing cowoa 2.6 with my sweet cowoa 2.3 loaded into zc151, and then painstakingly merging cowoa2.6 into zc154, only to end the day feeling a lot more work is required before 2.6 is up and running on zc154.
I struggle to see the point of the "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" content boxes bundled into cowoa, especially without adequate explanation of what they are supposed to do. But alas they are written into the auto-installer, and their respective files must be inspected and merged in order to derisk a white screen of death. So much extra work when I am already inclined to leave them turned off. In the next release, it would be nice if these could be treated as options rather than as core, more kiss, less facesuck.
Also, if the new and substitute icons could be placed into separate folders under images and icons, so that they are not loaded as if required, only to have to weed them out later.
It has been one of those days.
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
I spent all day (more than 8 weary hours) comparing cowoa 2.6 with my sweet cowoa 2.3 loaded into zc151, and then painstakingly merging cowoa2.6 into zc154, only to end the day feeling a lot more work is required before 2.6 is up and running on zc154.
Right.. Well not for nothing here, but since it was stated VERY CLEARLY in the Github repo and on this support thread that v2.6 is a BETA version of COWOA, I'm not quite sure what exactly you were expecting by installing a STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT module... But thanks for pointing out that v2.6 still not ready to be released (something I think ALL the contributors are keenly aware of, and have made clear to EVERYONE who's asked about this version of COWOA.. hence why it's not yet been released..)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
I struggle to see the point of the "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" content boxes bundled into cowoa, especially without adequate explanation of what they are supposed to do. But alas they are written into the auto-installer, and their respective files must be inspected and merged in order to derisk a white screen of death. So much extra work when I am already inclined to leave them turned off. In the next release, it would be nice if these could be treated as options rather than as core, more kiss, less facesuck.
It's a BETA VERSION and we're STILL TESTING new features.. So it's ON so we can TEST.. I hope that's clear enough now..
As for WHY the "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" content boxes are part of the COWOA core?? I explained that a few posts back when I 1st posted the link to the COWOA Github repo.. Adding those reasons to the readme files while we're still TESTING is well.. a LOT premature.. Now if you wanna to do some reading up on your own about usability studies and shopping cart conversions, you'll see WHY these OPTIONAL features were added.. (probably the SAME reason why SIMILAR features were added to FEC, and PROBABLY why similar conversion and usability features are being discussed being included as part of the v1.6 core integration of COWOA)
Again.. if you don't want these features, the answer is very simple.. don't turn them on.. They are on by default because WE ARE TESTING and this is how we wanna test things while this module is in BETA.. That should be okay no???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
Also, if the new and substitute icons could be placed into separate folders under images and icons, so that they are not loaded as if required, only to have to weed them out later.
No idea what you are talking about..
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Actually the mod is quite good, having made further inroads today. My main objection with "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" is the potential for clutter on the login page and distracting customers from quickly proceeding through checkout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DivaVocals
No idea what you are talking about..
No wonder, I got confused with SuperOrders, which I had been working on earlier that day. I should have had a rest before jumping straight into COWOA.
Cheers
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
Actually the mod is quite good, having made further inroads today. My main objection with "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" is the potential for clutter on the login page and distracting customers from quickly proceeding through checkout.
Right.. Can't say this enough (apparently).. Just like the option for turning off the sideboxes during the checkout, the "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" boxes are an OPTIONAL FEATURE.. If you are concerned, then DON'T turn these boxes on.. A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of work was done researching shopping cart conversions and improving the checkout process.. I relied on information obtained from people and sites who have distinguished themselves as EXPERTS in this arena. Some of this research includes recommendations from STARS within the Zen Cart community including Delia Wilson, Melanie Prough, and Eric Leuenberger. The inclusion of these boxes is based on usability and conversion studies which suggest their inclusion AIDS in shopping cart conversion.. (as I have already explained in my prior posts) The location is strategically placed precisely so that they don't clutter or distract.. (again based on RESEARCH which indicates that this is the BEST location for these boxes) This is why they are on the right at the bottom of the right column.
Strongly suggest that you read up on shopping cart conversion and some of the usability studies conducted to understand the logic behind the inclusion of these elements and why the location they are placed in was chosen.. We're not forcing any feature on anyone who installs COWOA.. We're only including elements that have been proven in studies to improve the checkout experience. These improvements aren't based on what WE (the contributors) think is right or even prefer.. There was actually some thoughtful research put into adding each of the new features.. Now if you don't believe the logic behind these new inclusions (like turning off the sideboxes throughout the checkout to reduce distractions, the "Shop with Confidence" and "Customer Service" boxes, etc), then DON'T TURN THEM ON.. Again they are OPTIONAL settings. They are turned on by default in our BETA version because we are still TESTING..
I DO appreciate your feedback, but you appear to be advocating excluding these features because YOU don't want them. Which at the end of the day is a PERSONAL preference. I don't see ANY reason to not include these features when they can EASILY be turned off which should satisfy your concerns.. Now if you have a more compelling reason other than personal preference why this feature should not be included, I am all ears because the Githib COWOA effort is ALL ABOUT trying to improve the shopping cart experience..
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Alternatives would be to create a separate mod for these items or to enable the parts to be included in other sideboxes, such as Information or More Information.
For stores that also turn off all sideboxes on the login page, such sidebox options would be superfluous.
For those seeking to upgrade from previous versions of this mod and/or zencart, the extra work can be more than a bother. Like I said for me it took all day just to compare the new fileset aganist my older fileset and then to compare the affected files in zc154, since I kept the same db in upgrading directly from zc151, and since the documentation explaining the changes had understandably not yet been updated. It then took another day to get the mod working similar to what I had previously. I am sure the earlier versions, including that with checkout steps, did not require half as much work to setup.
Also I am not a fan of auto-installers, generally because (coming from a non-programming background) I dont always get how they work, and much prefer the old sql-patch method where it is relatively easy to study the changes about to be made and relatively easy to alter or stage (rem/unrem) the sql-patch to only make changes that I understand or desire.
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
For those seeking to upgrade from previous versions of this mod and/or zencart, the extra work can be more than a bother. Like I said for me it took all day just to compare the new fileset aganist my older fileset and then to compare the affected files in zc154, since I kept the same db in upgrading directly from zc151, and since the documentation explaining the changes had understandably not yet been updated. It then took another day to get the mod working similar to what I had previously. I am sure the earlier versions, including that with checkout steps, did not require half as much work to setup.
BETA VERSION.. No docs.. Still in development.. So while I appreciate you sharing your expereince, IT'S A BETA VERSION!!!!! Were you expecting a FINISHED product?????? Not sure what your point is here..
Now that said, all of the contributors have tested UPGRADING, and we aren't having the PLETHORA of issues you are describing with regards to upgrading, but to your point we will make sure that we test upgrades thoroughly..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
Alternatives would be to create a separate mod for these items or to enable the parts to be included in other sideboxes, such as Information or More Information
Right.. So allow me to be blunt here.. I appreciate your concerns, but that's JUST NOT going to happen.. not creating a separate module.. It's an OPTIONAL feature.. Don't want it? Don't turn it on.. Why NOT use a sidebox?? Well it's pretty simple. Because some shop owners may turn off sideboxes on checkout pages, we'd have to code for those setups, and without knowing HOW they diabled their sideboxes what would we code for?? the variations on how they MIGHT have done this are numerous.. Sure we could ASSume that they are using the SAME method to turn off the sideboxes we are using in this module, but what if they are using a DIFFERENT means to turn off their sideboxes?? Then what?? Wait to see what those exeptions MIGHT be and then what?? add a piece of code to cover each exception discovered?? Wrestle on the support thread with trying to help shopowners come up with the exact piece of custom code THEY need to cover their unique setup??
Coding by exception is an inherently BAD idea.. which is why we opted for a much SIMPLER way to implement this feature all the while making this module FLEXIBLE enough So that anyone who doesn't want this feature can OPT OUT of it by turning it off.. I appreciate YOU don't want it.. But with all due respect, I have to look at this from a less myopic perspective. That means improving this module by including MODERN tested options that IMPROVE checkout conversions for those who want those features and making such features optional for those shopowners who DON'T want them.. Frankly providing a means to turn the feature off is MORE than an adequate remedy for your concerns. It's YOUR choice to decide that this is not enough of a remedy. It's open source.. feel free to hack away to make this module what you want... Don't want this feature?? hack it out..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
For stores that also turn off all sideboxes on the login page, such sidebox options would be superfluous.
Right.. Honestly, this is a less than compelling argument for leaving this feature out.. That said, for shopowners using the SAME method we are to achieve this, I think this is gonna be in the NO BIG DEAL category for most folks.. All we do is move the list of pages to disable sideboxes from a PHP file to the admin where it's MUCH more accessible by novice shopowners and they can easily edit the list of pages to suit their needs.. It's an ease of use improvement anyway which is NOT a bad thing at all. If a shopowner is using another method to turn off sideboxes, this optional feature isn't going to HURT anything.. and AGAIN if they don't WANT to turn off sideboxes during checkout, this feature is OPTIONAL.. You are objecting to an OPTIONAL feature that YOU don't want, and for reasons that are frankly LESS than compelling. Honestly, I don't know what else to tell you..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dw08gm
Also I am not a fan of auto-installers, generally because (coming from a non-programming background) I dont always get how they work, and much prefer the old sql-patch method where it is relatively easy to study the changes about to be made and relatively easy to alter or stage (rem/unrem) the sql-patch to only make changes that I understand or desire.
Again.. you ar giving another less than compelling and myopic argument for NOT using an auto installer.. You DO know that the Zen Cart INSTALLATION is the GRAND-DADDY of all auto-installer scripts right??????
YOU not knowing how the installer works is NOT a GOOD reason to NOT include one with COWOA.. Want to know how the COWOA auto-installer works?? Well then study the auto installer and REM out what you don't want.. They really aren't a big mystery especially when you consider that a NON-PROGRAMMER created this one..
The auto-installer was added because it simplifies the installation, and lessens the chance of install issues. From a support POV the old SQL method is PASSE.. PERIOD.. It is a NIGHTMARE to have to contend with explaining the ins and outs of myPHPAdmin or the Zen Cart SQL installer to non-technical shopowners.. It is a NIGHTMARE to have to create and MAINTAIN MULTIPLE SQL SCRIPTS to try and cover the VARIETY of install and pre-install conditions that might exist. (did the site once have FEC installed?? Are they coming from an older version of COWOA?? are they running this on a v1.3.9 store???) The auto installer allows us to check for the existence of certain conditions and strategically run those parts of the SQL.. It ensures that more shop owners will have a successful and trouble-free installation.. Sorry that doesn't sit well with YOU and YOUR specific needs, but I have LARGER support concerns to contend with than your desire to hang on to an OUTDATED method of developing modules.. Adding features which lend themselves to lessening the chance of install failures IS NOT a bad thing despite your arguments against such moves..
One of these days I'm going to get REAL fancy and figure out how to use the methods that powerhouse devs like niccol and lhungil use in their mods so that the need to have to rename template folders to install modules is passe as well. **gasp** I expect that you will object to these attempts to simplify/modify the installation process as well, and you should know now, that I will be just as unmoved by your arguments against these improvements as I am unmoved by your arguments against optional features andimprovements today.. **shrug**
I would ask you to please let's just agree to disagree, but I'm not sure you will do that.. Again, I appreciate your thoughts, but with all due respect, your concerns don't really rise to the level of REAL bugs or even real issues.. The bottomline is that you just don't like the new OPTIONAL features. Being able to turn off an OPTIONAL feature is not an acceptable remedy to you, and I don't have an alternate to offer you.. Finally you don't like the new auto-installer because YOU don't understand it..
Duly noted..
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DivaVocals
I would ask you to please let's just agree to disagree, but I'm not sure you will do that.. Again, I appreciate your thoughts, but with all due respect, your concerns don't really rise to the level of REAL bugs or even real issues.. The bottomline is that you just don't like the new OPTIONAL features. Being able to turn off an OPTIONAL feature is not an acceptable remedy to you, and I don't have an alternate to offer you.. Finally you don't like the new auto-installer because YOU don't understand it..
I would agree with DivaVocals here. They are optional features (which I've been using on my clients site for years, they do improve conversions, so will use) in beta software. Your troubles with them and the auto-installed do not warrant either of them being removed. I see them both as improvements and appreciate DivaVocals continuing to take the time to maintain and update this plug-in.
Re: COWOA v2.6beta on GitHub
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeking
I would agree with DivaVocals here. They are optional features (which I've been using on my clients site for years, they do improve conversions, so will use) in beta software. Your troubles with them and the auto-installed do not warrant either of them being removed.
Yep.. Times are a-changing, and we now know a LOT more about user behavior and this module needs to keep up with those changes.. Some of the old mores about online shopping are still very much reflected in current versions of COWOA and within the default Zen Cart checkout.. It's time to adapt and "get with the times". That's what we're trying to do here.. We are in some places allowing for those folks who want to hang on to the "old ways".. (ie: optional features)
We also know a LOT more about DIY shopowners behavior too.. SIMPLIFYING the process to eliminate potential points of failure is to the benefit of the community as a WHOLE.. Not doing so simply because I like the "old method" is akin to me hanging on to my 1982 Portland color TV television and expecting DirectTV to "make it work" with my new whole home DVR system.. So while DirectTV eventually figured out a way to hook up my new wireless whole home DVR to a television where the only inputs and outputs are via a coaxial cable, the price I pay for this is a FUZZY picture on this T.V., because they have to use a converter box to convert from coaxial to composite in order to connect the TV to the Genie Mini.. This obliterates the signal, and results in noise lines on the screen..
Am I in the market for a replacement for this T.V.?? probably not anytime soon as it's really just an office "noise-maker" to help me pass the time while I work.. I've learned to adapt to the fuzz:laugh:.. But I do now recognize that I just can no longer hang on to this T.V. anymore simply because "it still works".. Same is true of COWOA.. So anyone who doesn't want to move FORWARD with the new features is welcome to grab the old codebase, update it to whatever version of Zen Cart they are using and stick with the "old way" of doing things.. v2.6 is not JUST about implementing a silly Zen Cart compatibility update, it's about IMPROVING the process..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeking
I see them both as improvements and appreciate DivaVocals continuing to take the time to maintain and update this plug-in.
and I appreciate that you and Dave have been contributing to this dev effort.. :clap:The next steps I see for this should be an effort to simplify the number of steps without obscuring, confusing, and obliterating the process (which many so-called "one-page" solutions do).. I think a GREAT starting point will be making the shipping and billing info pages ONE "step" (versus the 2 steps they are now) Melanie Prough provided some links to some articles with some great info on this.. I'll share them on the Github repo as a point of discussion on a direction in this regard..
