Complete template/layout editor in admin?

[Leephi]

I’m a new user at the Zen Cart software, but I am an experienced pc user, and I soon have a master degree in Information -and Communication Technology. I’m writing my master thesis now and Zen Cart is an integral part in the paper. So far I think the Zen Cart system is very functional, but I’m missing one thing; a good, user friendly and functional design editor in admin.
I agree that Zen Cart can be installed and set-up by anyone with the most basic web building and computer skills. I also agree it is easy to install other templates found on the Internet. But when it comes to create your own special layout, far more web building skills is required. You have to be skilled in both understanding and creating html and php.

Here’s a scenario: If you have sketched your idea of design on a piece of paper. With header, sideboxes, main page contents, product page etc. This design is made before Zen Cart is installed. Then I find it difficult to form your design idea from paper into Zen Cart. You have to be experienced in web programming and especially PHP. Designing your page from scratch may not be a so much of a problem, but when you have to integrate it into the Zen Cart methods, functions etc it gets trickier. You only need basic web building and computer skills to install Zen Cart. Why not make it just as easy to change the whole layout into your own special design in admin?

I have some ideas which I will post later on. But does anybody else have some thoughts around this issue? Is a more detailed layout editor being planned in the coming updates? If not I am willing to post some ideas.

Leif Heggø, Norway.

[afo]

I disagree.

I knew very little php when I started with Zen Cart (still not very proficient with it) and I was able to create the Holzheimer's site in my sig with the limited knowledge I had. Zen Cart requires no HTML knowledge since the HTML is built on the fly by the php elements. Many of the changes required to create a template can be achieved in the stylesheet - no php or HTML involved.

Including some sort of template functions in the admin would bloat the software unnecessarily.

[Leephi]

Ok, i both agree and disagree with you. The stylesheet alone will not give you the exact layout you have planned. You can change fonts, color, widht, depth etc, but this is only in "the layout" already made. You site is an good example. Entering your site you can easyli see you have used zencart. If you are planning to develop a proffesional web shop, a distinct layout is essential.

Imagine you have the whole layout shown in thumbnail in "section one" in the browser window in admin. When you press for an example the menu box a thumbnail of the menu comes up in "section one". Then you can acess all the code that define the menu. so if you press the border, the code that defines the border comes up in a "section two". You can now easyli change the code and the changes take effect immediately.

My problem has sometimes been to find where in the code i have to make changes. For an example i want all my products that are shown in front page to be displayed differently; in tables with more information etc. So i have to find out what line of code that "gets" random products of the database, and i have to find out how to display tables with productimages not only the productimages. With a design editor in admin which i tried to short explain earlier. All I had to do is "zoom in" to where the products on the main page are shown in "section one". I wil get a code segment in "section 2" and i can extract information or just change the code directly. Sort of like a "designer view" coding. But this tool is integrated in admin.

I am not saying it is very difficult to make your own layout now. The code is explained and there is a lot of tutorials. I am saying it is time consuming and you do have to have a knowledge of coding. A layout editor in admin would be easier and time saving. Though it is very possible now to make changes now. I am talking about going "set-up by anyone with the most basic web building and computer skills" a bit further including also many layout changes.

This is a bit difficult to explain only in writing words, but i hope it is understandable.

-Leif

[stevesh]

If you are planning to develop a proffesional web shop, a distinct layout is essential.

I'll respectfully disagree with that, if by 'distinct' you mean 'unique'.

The typical Zencart header-three columns-footer layout is pretty much the standard in major retail website design. It's difficult to see much difference in the layout among, say, Meijer, Target, Walmart, Sam's Club, Lowes, etc. Visitors tend to be more comfortable with a familiar design and navigation.

That said, I agree (and I think most others here would, too) that the templating of Zencart is time-consuming and pretty confusing at first. I'm not sure that a design feature in Admin is the answer (I'd have to see exactly what you have in mind), but a single template directory for the whole site (Joomla) would be a good start.

The issue is the trade-off between features and code bloat, and the time constraints of the developers comes into play, too. Speaking as someone who, admittedly, knows what he needs to know about styling Zencart, I'd rather they devote their time to functions that I think are more pressing.

Good discussion, though.

[afo]

You're making this far too complicated. Most users wouldn't know where to start with what you're proposing and it would add horrendous overhead to the program. As Stevesh pointed out, most online stores are laid out in very similar ways.

Although the templating may seem confusing at first, once you get the hang of it, it's simplicity itself.

Speaking for myself (and I think most other professional programmers), you don't want to get involved with code that generates code. It tends to be messy and nearly impossible to edit or maintain.

[Leephi]

By distinct i mean unique. And of course i agree with header-three colums-footer. But then its more important that the left column and right column is designed in your special layout.
I have seen too many example zen cart web shops that have almost the same sideboxes. It's like you say to your self right away "Ahhh, this site is made with Zen Cart". The only changes is color, width, pictures etc.

What i would like to manage is to create a unique website, with of course the header-three colums-footer model, with Zen Cart (all the functions and the admin is great). But with a layout that doesnt look like I've only made a couple of changes in the stylesheet. I would like to make the templating easier, less time consuming and less confusing that it is today, at least in the beginning.

I earlier mentioned a "designer code view" this is very difficult considering it is php coding. But I miss a "help-function". Zen Cart is relatively complex, and som sort of design editor would be nice. Not necesseraly a complete designer program within zencart, but some sort of system thats lets you easily find where in the code to change certain layout aspects. You "show" zen cart where you want to make changes and zen cart "gives" you the code which need changing, simply explained. I also tried to explain it in the ealier posts.

By the way, one of my problems I am discussing in my paper is: Is it possible to create a commercial and professional webshop using only open source software. I am using Zen Cart, and so long I am discussing the designer part. Because I think that a webshop isn't professional if it resembles multiple other webshops. It has to be unique, also in design layout

I am from Norway and you have to excuse my English if something is not made clear or if something is mispelled.

-Leif

[yellow1912]

If you want, pm me, I will show you a bunch of sites that look original and unique using zen.

[afo]

How many different layouts do you think there are? Do you really believe there's an infinite number? Do you really think every single website on the net will be unique?

[gjh42]

Or look at Kuroi's Unoffical Zen Cart Hall of Fame.

Of course each web site should be unique, as in not identical to any other. But it doesn't need to have major differences in fundamental layout. A distinct and unique design can be done with just the stylesheet and admin settings... not to say that there aren't designs that require a lot of code changes.

[Leephi]

Sorry, my bad. I have complexed a problem more than necessary.

Ok, I agree. You can create a nice looking site only using the stylesheet and the admin settings. For me, who i would say is over average in computer and web programing skills, it is managable as long as you take som time reading tutorials.

But I have friend which has very good computer skills, but not so much coding or web developing skills.
He didn't find it difficult to install Zen Cart and configuring the database. On the things he was stuck on he easily found the soloutions on the tutorials. Neither did he have problems to customize the store for his use (adding products, shipping cost etc). This is because the admin function here is vey good. Then he wanted to chande his page design. Nothing in admin other than moving boxes around or removing them. Wouldn't be an idea if it were more things you could choose for the sideboxes? He found out he could change the template and started to read some tutorials. But since he is relatively new to coding he lost his patience and thougt it was too confusing. Then he asked me if i knew if it was possible to do make design changes in admin...


If you go to Tools->Define pages editor
Here you can select a page and then a window with code appears. You can now easily edit the code. Why isn't it a field to the right where you can type in your desired text and the it will automatically be inserted into the right place in the code. What if more "pages" were to found her. What if i could choose "side box general", or even a specific side box. And the you could make changes straight in admin. It was fields to the right with most common variables. Take for an example that i have now chosen to change "sideboxes" from the dropdown menu:

Font: (also color and size)
Header: (color or picture)
Name: (name that appers on header)
Width:
Height:
More...

Atributes that are printed here are automatically changed in the code. So if you want to change the code, use the code window. If you are not so good with code use the fields to the right and the code will change automatically. Basic things to change the look for your sideboxes.

But not only sideboxes. You could choose for an example"product info". Then code appears in the window to the left . And also fields with most common variables to the right. Example would be:

Name: (name of product, if differs from the database)
Size: (size of the product picture)
Font Price: (size, colour...)
More...

My basic idea here is that you have more simple variations of design that can be fixed in admin. Not only position of the sideboxes but also, size, color and basic design etc.

I haven't made it yet, but i can make screenshots with description explaining my idea. I see now it is difficult to explain something without visual aids.

-Leif