Shipping weight display differences

[lruskauff]

Hi
I discovered this when helping someone else on the forum and I don't know enough about the program flow yet to know where to change this. It is only a display problem and I believe it can be turned off so it is not a pressing problem. But I thought someone w more knowledge would know.

When I go to my shopping cart the total weight on the top does not include the Tare. If I click on the Shipping Estimator, I will see 2 weights. The one on the top again does not show Tare, but the one besides the Zone estimate does.

It is giving the correct estimate, that is not a problem. I just wondered why no Tare (a customer might wonder why the weight is changing).

If I look at header.php for the shopping cart (includes/modules/pages/shopping_cart/header_php.php) I see this code:

// build shipping with Tare included
$shipping_weight = $_SESSION['cart']->show_weight();
/*
  $shipping_weight = 0;
  require(DIR_WS_CLASSES . 'order.php');  $order = new order;
  require_once('includes/classes/http_client.php'); // shipping in basket
  $total_weight = $_SESSION['cart']->show_weight();
  $total_count = $_SESSION['cart']->count_contents();
  require(DIR_WS_CLASSES . 'shipping.php');
  $shipping_modules = new shipping;
  $quotes = $shipping_modules->quote();
*/

If I removed the commented out section, it changes the displayed weight to the tare weight.

But I don't know if I should do this or figure out why the shipping weight isn't returned by the first statement.

$shipping_weight = $_SESSION['cart']->show_weight();

In other words, is the shipping weight WITH tare supposed to be saved at this point or is it supposed to be without tare and we need to add it.

I am running 1.5.4; php 5.4.45; shipping modules USPS, Zone Rates, and free shipping options. I tried it with default template. And the code in the unedited version of zencart is the same.

Thanks
lruskauff

[mc12345678]

Here's my thought on the situation. Generally speaking, the shipping weight isn't known until a few other things are known such as to where it is being shipped and by what means and in some cases from where it is shipped which may depend on the answer to the first question.

Now, sure there are conditions that could possibly be "preconsidered" such as to automatically add shipping "tare" if in store pickup is not included, or if the tare for all available methods was the same, or... But another option if it might seem confusing is to not show the weight of the products to begin with... Or to add text to explain the difference(s)/describe what the various data means such as product weight versus shipping weight...

It could be that say a klunky object weighs x and because of the packaging to keep it protected the packing is y. But if picked up in store then the "packaging" is up to the customer and therefore not to be factored as part of the "shipping". At the same time a "responsible" store operator would provide the same amount of material regardless, but then that packaging weight would need to be factored into the product weight and not require any additional shipping weight..... Course makes some things more complicated, but...

But it seems to come down to how all is setup and what is desired to be seen where... As said, in the end it comes out right, but doesn't look right along the way. Yes, more is needed to make it look right through the process and why one should navigate through the process as a customer to look for things like that, change content as needed, and make decide how it all should be presented...

[lruskauff]

I understand what you are saying but customers won't think of those details. They will actually think "hey why are the two different". At least in my opinion. And yes, I can turn it off.

But once you reach the shopping cart you have x items and the tare should be the same, no matter where you are shipping. And if they are picking it up, who gives a darn. So maybe I'm missing something but when would the tare be different?

And again, when they go to shipping estimator, they either know the zip or it is entered, so all the tare on that page should be the same also, but it isn't.

Thanks.
l

[RodG]

Here's my thought on the situation. Generally speaking, the shipping weight isn't known until a few other things are known such as to where it is being shipped and by what means and in some cases from where it is shipped which may depend on the answer to the first question

Say, Whaaaaatttt!

I've shipped hundreds of parcels over the years, and never has the weight changed based on the destination. :)

I can only assume that what you are trying to state here is that some parcels (eg: those destined overseas) may require heavier/sturdier packing, but Zen
Cart has no way to implement this (by default) so it is somewhat of a moot point.

lruskauff's observation that some in some (Most? All? ) places Zencart will only show the total weight of the products, and other places (typically the shipping modules themselves) it will show the shipping weight, but this isn't a bug (if that was being implied), and in fact it is technically 'correct' in operation and design.

Sure, the 'problem' can be remedied without too much difficulty by including the tare along with all weight total display, but that can also confuse some customers when they add two products in the cart weighing 1kg each, but the total somehow add up to 2.3kg)

I've considered this a number of times over the years, and have only really come up with two viable 'solutions'.
1) Don't show the weight totals at all (except for the one(s) relating to shipping weight).
2) Add an explanatory note to explain the difference.

I've gone for option#1 every time. No confusion for the customers, and they won't even know what it is that I'm not showing them.

Ignorance really can be bliss. :-)

Cheers
RodG

[Phil Soth]

Hello,

I am glad to see this thread, as I was working with lruskauff earlier, and we couldn't figure a way through my situation. I do not know if vanilla ZC shipping settings will work for me or not, or whether I need some special coding between the Shopping Cart and Shipping Estimator or what. Anyway, here goes....

My website is www.heirloomstocherish.com and I am on ZC v1.5.4. As you can see from our site, we sell mouth-blown, hand painted German Christmas ornaments. Most of these ornaments weigh about 2 ounces (oz) when they are wrapped in tissue and sealed in their own specialized gift box. We ship via USPS, all over the US and worldwide, although my primary shipping issue is US-related. When I ship one ornament, I use a 7x7x7 box, cushioning the gift-boxed ornament in Styrofoam peanuts; by the time the Fragile sticker and shipping labels are added, the box weighs about 9 oz. When I ship 2 ornaments, the shipping box is slightly larger to accommodate the two boxed ornaments (which now constitutes 4 oz) and weighs roughly 13 oz. Shipping three ornaments, weighing 6 oz, involves total package weight of about 18 oz. I hope you can see where this heading..
In order to cover my shipping costs (I do not offer free shipping – margins are already slim), I had been using a default of a total shipping weight on each ornament (Products Shipping Weight, in Catalog) of .75 lb (or 12 oz). That worked fine for one ornament, as it covered not only shipping expense, but also insurance; however, by the time a customer had his/her cart loaded with 7-8-9-10 or more ornaments, the total shipping expense became prohibitive. My answer has been to offer to reimburse any customer whom I have “over-charged” for shipping via a credit back the Method of Payment; this has worked reasonably well, and those customer who have received a credit are pleasantly surprised. But I wonder how many customers simply walked away fromt heir cart.
To alleviate some of the problem, I dropped the Products Shipping Weight from .75 to .6 lb (9 oz), but this not only does this not cover insurance at the lower quantities, it also still discourages the larger orders. Dropping the Products Shipping Weight even further kills my margin at the lower order quantities, and still doesn’t help the customer at the larger order levels.
Digging into Shipping options in ZC, I encountered the Tare settings, but could net get them to calculate anything. Even when I changed to Zone Rates, the postage calculation did not change. But the theory behind the Tare settings is exactly what I am looking for: Shipping weight is based on a combination of product weight, package tare as a percent of product weight, and package tare as a fixed weight. The exciting factor is that I can get the correct Package Weight for a broad range of product quantities (all the way from a package of 1, out to 25+). But I can’t get ZC Tare to work.
I am attaching an copy of my Excel spreadsheet, showing the settings that will work for me (didn't know how to really attach it, sorry). Is there anyone out there who can help me solve my problem – either with standard ZC functionality, or with a little app that goes between the Cart and Checkout, that feeds the correct package weight?

Quantity in Box
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 25
Ornament plus Gift box weight (oz) 2 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 50
Package Tare, added percent 80% 1.6 3.2 4.8 6.4 8 9.6 11.2 12.8 14.4 16 40
Package Tare, added weight (oz) 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7
Total Weight in packing box (oz) 11 14 18 21 25 29 32 36 39 43 97
6.0625


By the way, to see what I am talking about, feel free to go out to my website and create a Cart, then see what happens to the Shipping Estimator for your region.

Thanks for any help,
Phil

[Phil Soth]

I just wanted to follow-up with my little adventure in Tare. I have it working just fine - thanks to all the people who have contributed to this thread and the other one. While it takes a little fiddling to get the calculations to turn out fairly correct, I learned a few things, at least for my business model, which involves very light items (~2 oz.) comprising relatively larger cubic space (55.35 cubic inches) requiring lots of protective packing and 200 lb rated cardboard boxes in a wide variety of sizes, depending on the order.

The first thing I learned is that the Tare calculation tends not to work as well for onesy-twosy orders as it does for orders of 3 items or more, but when it works (which is 90%+ of the time, it works well). The trick was to play with both Tare percent and tare weight. Second, the weight shown on the Shipping Estimator will only show Product weight, not total order weight (product plus tare), so you can't see the result of tare adjustments easily. Third, because of the second point, it is best to have a schedule of shipping rates from your carrier handy (I use USPS), so you can cross-check your results after you've made an adjustment. While the weights won't change in SE, the postage amount will correctly reflect charge for the total order weight. Fourth, since Insurance is a big part of how I do business, and thus needs to be included in SE, it absolutely necessary to set USPS calculations to "Retail" not "Online", as the online setting ignores your insurance setting.

Like I say, I just wanted to close the loop with everyone one this fun project. I am warm and fuzzy now!

[lruskauff]

Thanks for sharing.