Developers minimum requiremet before listing plugin

[rbarbour]

Community Contributed Plugins are just that, contributed and FREE as is Zen Cart.

You get what you pay for!

I am and I can admit one of the worst contributors.

I remove demo sites as fast as I make available due to an overwhelming amount of visitors and not to mention the spam these demo sites create. I no longer provide detailed instructions for they simply don't get read and I have to explain via a support forum anyways, most the time the same question over and over. I'm no longer active in my support threads for I get frustrated and irritated with the laziness, the community that gets everything for free wants so much more at the authors cost.

Separating plugins based on being a certain "criteria" is asinine, who's taking on that responsibility for FREE. And what's to say that persons opinion on "NOT MEETING CRITERIA" differs from others. Just cause one cant install it based on installation instructiond provided doesn't mean everyone will have those same difficulties. Who decides which plugins are "PAID" or not, why will one authors work be valued and not the others.

Tighten the "guidelines" on community contributed plugins and the community will find themselves buying commercial plugins for even the smallest things.

Everyone that complains about incomplete plugins or functions that should exist should do the community a favor and spend "their" time documenting file alterations, writing installation instruction and re-packaging those incomplete plugins to help others in the community that may run into the same difficulties that they did.

Just because your not the original author doesn't mean you cant contribute and upload a better documented version of it.

Just my #2cents, I have been following several discussions here on the forums for several weeks and I am disgusted and appalled.

Nothing in life is FREE, it's provided but if you want to make it your own then own it and stop bitching about it!

Edit, Remove, Delete at will.

[torvista]

Everyone that complains about incomplete plugins or functions that should exist should do the community a favor and spend "their" time documenting file alterations, writing installation instruction and re-packaging those incomplete plugins to help others in the community that may run into the same difficulties that they did.

Just because your not the original author doesn't mean you cant contribute and upload a better documented version of it.

Damn right!

Almost everything I have ever uploaded has just been a cleaning-up exercise of someone else's code/idea to fix the problems that I encountered and trying to give something back as being "the right thing to do".
That doesn't make me the owner, or one of these many "developers" that people keep mentioning, nor responsible for correcting bugs other people find subsequently.

You don't like it/it's not good enough, then you fix it, don't complain about the free lunch.

[shags38]

My first reaction is that the comments since my last post, are in the main defensive of the current system or defensive of the individuals situation, and that the system is not broken so why bother to fix it. So much for 'community' - the majority of those with the skills to do coding do not generally have problems with plugins - they have the nouse and experience to work through the glitches - and they can actually make recommendations for the fixes and even submit them back to the developer. The majority of us poor cretins without such skills need a lot of support for certain plugins that either lack the communication level that a cretin can understand and such then be able to handle the install correctly - that support is absolutely fabulous in many plugin support threads and definitively lacking in others. It is the others that the system needs to fix to minimize frustration.

The other common comment is that it is FREE, don't complain about getting a free lunch. Some of the free plugins I would gladly pay for if they had an acceptable user pays price, I'm sure there would also be others of the same opinion, however just because it is free doesn't in anyway justify the lack of support for what can often be not so good plugins (not integrating properly). Free is not an excuse for don't care attitude, work it out for yourself or ask someone else in another forum approach. I personally had 4 websites unable to trade due to lack of integration between two add-ons with both developers blaming the other for code clashes, one used non standard ZC code protocols - no warnings at all in the intro nor the instructions. Regardless of the singular attitude of a developer the user should not have to suffer financially because of such things.

Yes there are those out there that do not read carefully and hence cause all sorts of time wasting issues for developers (and others) - again this group doesn't justify the 'people don't read the instructions anyway' tag being applied to everyone - or writing instructions for the average Joe is too hard as long as the gifted ones understand then it is OK. I figure there are 3 groups in ZC; those that understand coding and are able to either construct and offer plugins, those that are not coders but either have learned some basics via forums and genuinely try to follow instructions and even nut things out for themselves before going to a support thread, and lastly those that have no idea and are not interested in learning about even the basics of coding to then be able to help themselves to at least a minor degree and who leech off others and expect everything to be done for them (I will let you assess which category I fit into :) )

At the end of the day it is apparent that things won't change so I am wearing out my keyboard for no apparent reason - it would be interesting to see some comments from non coders to see just how far off track I am - but alas they don't read this forum thread.

So no real reason to continue this thread - cheers, Mike

p.s. I am interested in having a plugin developed for use in ZC - anyone interested in taking a look at the specs and offering a quote? I have posted the idea in a couple of threads with little or no response to date (posted in Wishlist in February)

[mc12345678]

My first reaction is that the comments since my last post, are in the main defensive of the current system or defensive of the individuals situation, and that the system is not broken so why bother to fix it. So much for 'community' - the majority of those with the skills to do coding do not generally have problems with plugins - they have the nouse and experience to work through the glitches - and they can actually make recommendations for the fixes and even submit them back to the developer. The majority of us poor cretins without such skills need a lot of support for certain plugins that either lack the communication level that a cretin can understand and such then be able to handle the install correctly - that support is absolutely fabulous in many plugin support threads and definitively lacking in others. It is the others that the system needs to fix to minimize frustration.

The other common comment is that it is FREE, don't complain about getting a free lunch. Some of the free plugins I would gladly pay for if they had an acceptable user pays price, I'm sure there would also be others of the same opinion, however just because it is free doesn't in anyway justify the lack of support for what can often be not so good plugins (not integrating properly). Free is not an excuse for don't care attitude, work it out for yourself or ask someone else in another forum approach. I personally had 4 websites unable to trade due to lack of integration between two add-ons with both developers blaming the other for code clashes, one used non standard ZC code protocols - no warnings at all in the intro nor the instructions. Regardless of the singular attitude of a developer the user should not have to suffer financially because of such things.

Yes there are those out there that do not read carefully and hence cause all sorts of time wasting issues for developers (and others) - again this group doesn't justify the 'people don't read the instructions anyway' tag being applied to everyone - or writing instructions for the average Joe is too hard as long as the gifted ones understand then it is OK. I figure there are 3 groups in ZC; those that understand coding and are able to either construct and offer plugins, those that are not coders but either have learned some basics via forums and genuinely try to follow instructions and even nut things out for themselves before going to a support thread, and lastly those that have no idea and are not interested in learning about even the basics of coding to then be able to help themselves to at least a minor degree and who leech off others and expect everything to be done for them (I will let you assess which category I fit into :) )

At the end of the day it is apparent that things won't change so I am wearing out my keyboard for no apparent reason - it would be interesting to see some comments from non coders to see just how far off track I am - but alas they don't read this forum thread.

So no real reason to continue this thread - cheers, Mike

p.s. I am interested in having a plugin developed for use in ZC - anyone interested in taking a look at the specs and offering a quote? I have posted the idea in a couple of threads with little or no response to date (posted in Wishlist in February)

I'm going to step out of the "let's talk code" aspect of things and provide an observation. First of all and I'm addressing my own response(s) as they were grouped into the above first line. I had been working on my response the entire day since seeing the "this is how it ought to be" post and placing all of the ownership on the programmer and nothing on the user(s)... Next, the above starts with: all being defensive and then there are the stereotypical 3 items in a list and ending with, ending with I give up, I can't have an open conversation about how improvements can be furthered, but instead will do what it takes to support myself and better my own position... In fact I'm going to bring up for the fourth time about how everyone must have the functional interface of etsy and how no one else could possibly understand and it is a must have possibility by everyone... Noticing that even within less than a week that we had had a conversation about the topic, you started yet another thread on the exact same topic... A no-no in the community forum.

Okay, so you aren't a programmer, you may not know all the ins and outs of the terminology... You can write, correct? You can ask and answer questions, right? And if you don't understand something being said or requested, you have the ability to say please explain, correct? So, what is it about your situation that excuses you (and others) from participating and offering suggestions in the applicable thread about the issues particularly to indicate, hey I did/have done the following and these are the results I got?

As for "pay for users price"??? Seriously? That sounds like an excuse not a reason... If you truly wished to compensate ("buy a cup of coffee for someone") then there ought to be any of a number of ways to do so without necessarily "buying a users license"... The first and easiest being, hey boss I'd like to send you something, how might I be able to do that?

If you want someone to develop a plugin, may I suggest going to the Commercial Help Wanted forum... Perhaps someone there would pick up your request?

You would be surprised at the number of people that have or likely will read this thread as developer's or not... Please continue to lambast, ridicule and group everyone into their "place", there's nothing that will help your cause more...

For those that have read my previous posts, probably are surprised at the above, yes it's abnormal, I'm all for change, but it is a two way street, factors that have been identified by all seem valid, perhaps not stated because for some of those involved, well they've maintained professionalism... Hell, one of them has even made improvements to code which I improved upon, and I have yet to have the time in the priority list of furthering free code, daily life, household care, and those that have sought me out... It's not effort lost, but it certainly isn't/wasn't effort timely turned around. :) And even with that effort there were some other issues present to be worked out...

Back a little on the programmers "fighting" thing? Well, that "attitude" is not specific to ZC, it is generally a programmer's take.. Afterall, always right (0 and 1), knows the most, everyone else is just not worthy, yes all a stereotype (and there is far more descriptive words, but not needed)... A stereotype that doesn't have to be followed... But it is also the challenge that tends to be enticing... Somewhere in this forum, someone summarized programmers in a way similar to those that rise to the challenge at almost all costs, that take interest in the tough matters, and just can't let go... Maybe it was characteristic of a different type individual, but generally speaking it seems that many of those "negative" characteristics actually are what help drive the positive result(s).. Of course I tend to attribute some of the negative stuff as a partial result of personal aggravation/irritation, but what do I know...

[shags38]

firstly the subject matter is different to my previous post - secondly in any of the comments, any, try and find a positive - yep some things need fixing - every comment was defensive or critical with no positivity in respect to let's try and improve it. Like it is with a lot of written communication it can be read to fit.

I didn't 'give up' - as a realist it is obvious developers are taking offence so why would I continue to pour salt into the wound.

I looked at putting my request in the Commercial Help Wanted but upon visiting that thread I noticed this 'There have been no posts in the last 365 days in this forum.' - so the likelihood is that a post in there would be seen by very few - hence a suggestion I made about a forum thread that encouraged developers and Zenners alike to visit and discuss ideas - or maybe I missed that thread as well. The wishlist thread doesn't work for 'community' discussion, it is primarily a suggestion box, put your idea in a slot and wait for the next version to see if it was taken up.

I love Zen Cart but it frustrates the living daylights out of me as it seems very much like the old school tie club when it comes to trying to offer some ideas. I used the term collaboration in respect to ideas people, people with needs and people with skills (developers) getting their heads together and discussing the pros and cons of a particular plugin idea - it seems that there is little support for such an idea. I am a Marketing person, my input is about marketing (products via websites - it is what I do well)

I don't want this to be a pissing match so hence I figured I would refrain from commenting further in the hope that that the subject would go away, I'm finished with it.

Funny though, you look at the plugin page(s) and there is the 'contributors' list - seems you can only contribute to the ZC community if you can code a plug in, submitting ideas seems not to be contributing to the development of ZC :) (facetious I know but just couldn't resist it)

cheers, Mike

[balihr]

firstly the subject matter is different to my previous post - secondly in any of the comments, any, try and find a positive - yep some things need fixing - every comment was defensive or critical with no positivity in respect to let's try and improve it. Like it is with a lot of written communication it can be read to fit.

There's a reason comments were defensive. After having 4 hours of sleep (yes, that's how much we sleep) and now getting back to work, I have calmed down a bit.
The primary reason for being defensive is that your suggestions were in no way constructive. All you were saying is "we, the users, want programmers to work much more and much harder, so that we could benefit more." You don't show gratitude for what was given to you, but instead you require more to be given. Yet, you choose not to participate at all, just leech more.
It's easy to throw ideas and speak about how things should/could be. However, when it's time to pull the sleeves up and work, you back away.

I didn't 'give up' - as a realist it is obvious developers are taking offence so why would I continue to pour salt into the wound.

Not so much taking offense, as much as it hurts to see that the work and efforts are not appreciated. The developer who contributed a plugin offered you a hand, but you want the whole arm. And he must be willing to give a leg as well or risk being banned from the forum. Why? Just because he/she decided to share something with others in the hope of helping you improve your site?

I looked at putting my request in the Commercial Help Wanted but upon visiting that thread I noticed this 'There have been no posts in the last 365 days in this forum.' - so the likelihood is that a post in there would be seen by very few - hence a suggestion I made about a forum thread that encouraged developers and Zenners alike to visit and discuss ideas - or maybe I missed that thread as well. The wishlist thread doesn't work for 'community' discussion, it is primarily a suggestion box, put your idea in a slot and wait for the next version to see if it was taken up.

True, but something that you consider a must-have would probably be useless to someone else. If a feature is really a must-have and 99% of users would benefit, then most of such stuff IS developed. Otherwise, you can go and hire someone to do it for you.

I love Zen Cart but it frustrates the living daylights out of me as it seems very much like the old school tie club when it comes to trying to offer some ideas.

Again, please show us another community where everything is free and you can demand extra load on the developers, where they need to explain themselves why they didn't reply to the support thread. Constructive ideas are most welcome, but do make it constructive. Consider both views, make sure your idea is beneficial for everyone involved and your wishes might be granted.

I used the term collaboration in respect to ideas people, people with needs and people with skills (developers) getting their heads together and discussing the pros and cons of a particular plugin idea - it seems that there is little support for such an idea. I am a Marketing person, my input is about marketing (products via websites - it is what I do well)

No, it's not a tie club. Let's put all the cards down. You're running an online shop, right? Whether it's a hobby or your business, you're making money with it. You benefit from your site. On the other hand, developers who contribute their code are not making money from these plugins. If you need something and you will benefit from it, why not pay someone to do it for you? Contact the plugin author via PM and ask them to help you for a fee. Or hire a developer or freelancer. Why would you expect anyone to do all the (hard) work for you, build something for you and then give it to you as a gift? That's not collaboration between the programmer and the user, that's exploitation. Why don't you pay for it to be a plugin, require detailed documentation (and be ready to pay extra for it) and you can then share it with the community?

You mentioned earlier you'd be willing to pay for a plugin? You'd be surprised to hear how many people tell me that 20 bucks is too much to install a plugin, exchange 20 emails and teach them how to use a plugin. What would be considered fair, $5? And then you own me and want first-class support?

I don't want this to be a pissing match so hence I figured I would refrain from commenting further in the hope that that the subject would go away, I'm finished with it.

That's actually the worst thing you can do. Let's start over. Provide quality suggestions. Come up with a plan that works for both the average Joe AND for the developers. Don't push all the workload to the developers asking them to work even more (without being paid). Keep in mind nobody works for free, but only a handful of people volunteer in their free time for the greater good. If you have a volunteer willing to help you, don't insist on getting even more help... I don't want to be rude and I certainly don't want to compare the average Joe to a beggar, but this is like giving 5 bucks to a homeless beggar and he gives it back to you screaming "either give me 20 or walk away..."

Show us constructive ideas on how the users and developers can share the burden. I spent 20-30 hours creating, testing and debugging a plugin. Now who's gonna share that load with me and invest his/her 5 hours to write detailed documentation? Anyone else interested in spending 10-20 hours providing support on the forum? Anyone willing to spend 2-3 hours creating a video tutorial?

[frank18]

Naaa, Mike, you did raise a very valid point by starting this thread. Reading through all the comments, be they short or a lot of blah blah, I can take home a few good points and ideas.

And, at almost 62, I couldn't give a hoots about any whinging..... I say what I want (in a polite way ofc - after all it's public) and when I want. I take on board what concerns/interests me and the rest is discarded - just a legacy from 28 years in the shipping industry, the latter part as Master Mariner.

To keep things short, just a few thoughts:

The devs *are* taking notice of the submitted mods and many mods are now part of the standard ZC code. Ajeh has helped me with CSAR by asking a few 'what ifs' and pointing out some weaknesses.

After submission of PDP (Local Delivery Only / product delivery by postcode) DrByte PM'd me saying that the devs would have incorporated that mod into the next ZC release if it wasn't for me modifying a core file, namely functions_prices.php. Thanks, point taken.

Many fellow Zenners gave me hints how to do things better and discovered bugs which were subsequently corrected. I do the same with mods developed by others - and that's exactly what it's all about: collaboration.

The code of any mod is open source, everyone is welcome to change / improve the functionality of the submission.

Sure, I could pop them into GitHub but I just don't have the time now - not yet!

What did I learn from this thread?

1. let others do some testing before submission
2. pay better attention to the documentation (I have been trying to do my best and make it as clear as possible)

That's it from me - thanks again for raising these issues.

[stevesh]

Coding and documentation writing are two entirely different skills and it's not surprising that finding someone who can do both well is rare. My meager two plugins are just my flailing around with someone else's code, but I think they're pretty well documented. It's possible that if someone were to start a thread naming plugins which seem valuable but whose documentation isn't up to snuff, someone like me, who is much better with English than with PHP, might take a stab at fixing things. Understand that I don't subscribe to the notion that such instructions need to include tutorials on how to use FTP or CSS.

I would also like to see a provision for plugin authors to have their mods removed from the Plugins area if they fail to work with newer versions of ZC, or for any reason at all, really.

[shags38]

Thanks for the input Steve

Coding and documentation writing are two entirely different skills and it's not surprising that finding someone who can do both well is rare.

Like Sales and Marketing - two different disciplines but integral to each other -a good sales person can be a lousy marketer and vice versa - devs please do not assume personal inference here

It's possible that if someone were to start a thread naming plugins which seem valuable but whose documentation isn't up to snuff, someone like me, who is much better with English than with PHP, might take a stab at fixing things. Understand that I don't subscribe to the notion that such instructions need to include tutorials on how to use FTP or CSS.

It is good to see Steve that someone has taken up on a positive suggestion - a thread where developers and users (or leeches as we are sometimes referred to) can work collaboratively. I have no doubt there would be many Zenners who would be prepared to 'contribute' in respect to perusing plugin description and install instructions and make suggestions for modification to alleviate the workload on developers who do not have the time to expound on such documentation. I for one would be happy to participate

I would also like to see a provision for plugin authors to have their mods removed from the Plugins area if they fail to work with newer versions of ZC, or for any reason at all, really.

I totally agree with this as I am sure many others would also - this is one of the 'minimum criteria' aspects I was alluding to, plugins needing to meet a criteria but that criteria needs to be set by Admin. This particular aspect you have pointed out would be a very good starting point for a gradual 'reform' or 'upgrade' to the plugin process, one that would not put undue pressure on Admin or Developers, e.g. someone, and I have no problem in being that someone or one of a small 'team', can simply review all plugins for that specific aspect (works with current version) making a list with url's of those that do not state that they work with latest versions - submit the list to Admin - Admin send out a 'standard format' email to developers asking for relevant information/validation of conformity to current version.

Given previous comments that the code is communal and that anyone in the community can alter code to improve a plugin, should a developer not respond to the email advice for some reason or other then that plugin can be listed in a thread as requiring upgrading to conform to current version - the thread asking for volunteers from the community to do the required upgrade.

There are many examples of existing plugins that the original author has not continued to support, for whatever reasons and I am not casting aspersions as to the reasons, that have been 'adopted' by other Zenners - my assumption (likely incorrect) is that the new 'author/caretaker' of the plugin likely had a requirement for it and took it upon themselves to upgrade it (to the benefit of everyone). A specific thread as suggested would highlight plugins that need or could benefit from modification to 'the community' and those that are inclined could 'do their bit' whether it be code or documentation work, or both.

To my mind this would be a good example of community collaboration.

cheers, Mike

[shags38]

Frank, many thanks for your input - wise words - we senior citizens abound in wisdom do we not

[QUOTE=frank18;1298342]
The devs *are* taking notice of the submitted mods and many mods are now part of the standard ZC code. Ajeh has helped me with CSAR by asking a few 'what ifs' and pointing out some weaknesses.[QUOTE]
I understand that this is happening Frank, and I have seen it in posts - my suggestions were aimed at possibly introducing a methodology that would provide the mechanism for collaboration across the board rather than just sometimes in isolation, a think tank for want of a better term. In such a think tank scenario maybe others aside from Ajeh may have been inclined to offer input, who knows.

After submission of PDP (Local Delivery Only / product delivery by postcode) DrByte PM'd me saying that the devs would have incorporated that mod into the next ZC release if it wasn't for me modifying a core file, namely functions_prices.php. Thanks, point taken.

Could this scenario have been a good example of the benefit of a specific forum/thread for plugin development/collaboration that may have seen the plugin you developed commented on by others and then modified in respect to core files before submission?

Many fellow Zenners gave me hints how to do things better and discovered bugs which were subsequently corrected. I do the same with mods developed by others - and that's exactly what it's all about: collaboration.

I have no doubt that there is this level collaboration, I have seen it in some posts in some support threads - just wondering how many more Zenners may have offered input etc if there was a forum specifically for that purpose? I am not sure if such a forum would have any additional benefit or not.