Developers minimum requiremet before listing plugin

[shags38]

There's a reason comments were defensive. After having 4 hours of sleep (yes, that's how much we sleep) and now getting back to work, I have calmed down a bit.
The primary reason for being defensive is that your suggestions were in no way constructive. All you were saying is "we, the users, want programmers to work much more and much harder, so that we could benefit more." You don't show gratitude for what was given to you, but instead you require more to be given. Yet, you choose not to participate at all, just leech more.
It's easy to throw ideas and speak about how things should/could be. However, when it's time to pull the sleeves up and work, you back away.

It is amazing how the very same text can be interpreted by many people in many different ways - the reason many major corporations have banned interoffice emails and insist on staff communicating verbally, because it is all too easy to put an interpretation of intent, mood, personality etc and read criticism instead of suggestion.

I subscribe to the adage 'if you are going to do it at all then do it properly' - please do not read this as a personal statement aimed at you or developers as a group - the comment is aimed at a 'system' that works to the benefit of everyone, including us leeches - collaboration. If you personally do not have the time toi write the documentation in as much detail as you would like then put up your hand, ask for assistance, ask for some collaboration rather than submit something that you yourself probably know is not quite as complete as you would like if you had more time to allocate to a 'Free' plugin for the 'Leeches' (facetiousness intended).

Hence the suggestion, as part of hopefully improving the system for EVERYONE, a mechanism (read forum) whereby developers and Zenners can collaborate - developers ask for assistance, Zenners offer comments on functionality and hopefully offer assistance - and hopefully what comes out of the melting pot is a little more refined than the developer may have been able to achieve on their own - to the benefit of everyone.

Not so much taking offense, as much as it hurts to see that the work and efforts are not appreciated. The developer who contributed a plugin offered you a hand, but you want the whole arm. And he must be willing to give a leg as well or risk being banned from the forum. Why? Just because he/she decided to share something with others in the hope of helping you improve your site?

I'm sorry if I made any inference to not being appreciative of the work that developers do, it certainly was not my intention. I did express absolute frustration and maybe even anger at not getting support from a developer about a bug that cost me money (deleting all files didn't work in deleting the plugin, the uninstall SQL didn't work and I am reticent to fiddle with data bases without proper guidance) - and I was justified in making comments on their Facebook page which did the trick, got immediate reaction and assistance - it is this type of sub-standard support that in my opinion needs to be fixed, there are many other examples of support threads where the developer just doesn't respond and one has to hope that an 'angel of mercy' Zenner will actually visit the thread and offer some assistance, if they have the solution/answer - and of course posting the same query in another thread gets poo-pooed for duplicating posts whereby it is nothing more than a cry for help.
I am sure as a responsible developer that you would not like to think that this was acceptable.

(short pause - favorite song just came on the radio, need to stop tapping noise)

True, but something that you consider a must-have would probably be useless to someone else. If a feature is really a must-have and 99% of users would benefit, then most of such stuff IS developed. Otherwise, you can go and hire someone to do it for you.

Problem is where does someone submit an idea for a plugin that exposes the idea to the whole community (or at least that percentage that are participators) so that a true consensus can be gauged as to whether an idea for a plugin is something that many would use? There isn't, and I think that is a situation that could (read could) slow the further development of Zen Cart. [/QUOTE]

Again, please show us another community where everything is free and you can demand extra load on the developers, where they need to explain themselves why they didn't reply to the support thread. Constructive ideas are most welcome, but do make it constructive. Consider both views, make sure your idea is beneficial for everyone involved and your wishes might be granted.[\QUOTE]
I have repeatedly stated that I think Zen Cart is the best OS eCommerce platform around - I like other smart business people keep the finger on the pulse as to what is happening in the eCommerce arena, and as much as ZC has it's shortcomings it is still my prefernce, that is why I am here (and it is not just a dollars and cents decision to be here)

No, it's not a tie club. Let's put all the cards down. You're running an online shop, right? Whether it's a hobby or your business, you're making money with it. You benefit from your site. On the other hand, developers who contribute their code are not making money from these plugins. If you need something and you will benefit from it, why not pay someone to do it for you? Contact the plugin author via PM and ask them to help you for a fee. Or hire a developer or freelancer. Why would you expect anyone to do all the (hard) work for you, build something for you and then give it to you as a gift? That's not collaboration between the programmer and the user, that's exploitation. Why don't you pay for it to be a plugin, require detailed documentation (and be ready to pay extra for it) and you can then share it with the community?

Unlike some others that use ZC I am not a leech, I really do appreciate the inclination and effort a developer puts in to provide something for free that benefits others, without any recompense at all and sometimes not even a simple thank you, been there done that with Internet Marketing Plans and advice (I do get a buzz though knowing someone will benefit from my input, that's why I do it I suppose).
I have already asked for someone, anyone, to respond to my request for assistance in developing a plugin that I would be willing to pay for (albeit I do not have an endless pit of cash) and yes I would make it available to the community because I believe it will greatly benefit almost EVERY user of Zen Cart - no responders so far, not even 'what is the idea Mike' (not in this thread - one response in another thread) - probably because I am the only one who has suggested it so it can't be good if only one person has asked for it (facetiousness intended, again).

You mentioned earlier you'd be willing to pay for a plugin? You'd be surprised to hear how many people tell me that 20 bucks is too much to install a plugin, exchange 20 emails and teach them how to use a plugin. What would be considered fair, $5? And then you own me and want first-class support?

I have absolutely no idea what a developer would charge for the plugin I have in mind because no-one has responded to say hey for what you are looking for it will cost$xxx - why not offer me a quote? - anything less than 3 figures and I doubt that the plugin would be quality work, again albeit I do not know how much work is involved and what the hourly rate is, if that is how it works.

That's actually the worst thing you can do. Let's start over. Provide quality suggestions. Come up with a plan that works for both the average Joe AND for the developers. Don't push all the workload to the developers asking them to work even more (without being paid). Keep in mind nobody works for free, but only a handful of people volunteer in their free time for the greater good. If you have a volunteer willing to help you, don't insist on getting even more help... I don't want to be rude and I certainly don't want to compare the average Joe to a beggar, but this is like giving 5 bucks to a homeless beggar and he gives it back to you screaming "either give me 20 or walk away..."

Problem is few are responding to my outrageous post with any positivity - I hear what you are saying though - I should have titled this thread as 'does anyone think that the Administration of the Plugin System in ZC may possibly need some HouseKeeping'?
As a developer you are taking umbrage to certain things I have said, or the way you have interpreted what I said - and maybe my statements were too clinical and lacked consideration - more likely I should have made a disclaimer: does not apply to 'Quality Contributors'.

Show us constructive ideas on how the users and developers can share the burden. I spent 20-30 hours creating, testing and debugging a plugin. Now who's gonna share that load with me and invest his/her 5 hours to write detailed documentation? Anyone else interested in spending 10-20 hours providing support on the forum? Anyone willing to spend 2-3 hours creating a video tutorial?

Show us? - developers or the community?Have you as a developer ever asked for help to write up the documentation? i.e. asked the community? I think you would be pleasantly surprised that there are Zenners out there that cannot write code so cannot create a plugin but they are more than willing to 'contribute' - I for one will put my hand up and Stevesh has also - how many others may there be if only the question was asked? (but alas, where do you ask for that assistance?)


My post was not about wanting more for nothing - it was not about putting more undue pressure on developers who give freely of their time and talent to the community, a percentage of which is ungrateful and totally oblivious to the fact that these things do not just appear out of thin air but are literally 'contributed' in the true sense of the word.
Moreso the post was about weeding out the wheat from the chaff so that at some point down the track all plugins listed will be tried and tested, vetted, and fully supported with the same quality of documentation to match the quality of the plugin = constructive suggestion. Constructive Method to achieve this end = specific forum(s), volunteer teams to assist developers as they are able to do with their capabilities (documentation and code support) and community involvement in suggestions for plugins that may or may not be beneficial to many but at least a format where ideas can be put forward (at present many fall into the abyss or are lost in support forums) - that causes frustration and disillusion and it needn't be that way.

More 'Constructive' comment(s): utilize surveys or polls in forums and emails/newsletters - promulgate ideas for plugins and requests for assistance/participation in developing plugins using various 'responsive' methods. Ask the community - do not assume no-one cares or no-one else wants to do some hard yards.

Please ensure that anything I have said is not taken by anyone reading this as personal - there is no intention to criticize anyone but I am 'constructively criticizing' the system (or lack thereof) - in an effort to prompt discussion that hopefully may lead to some improvements, however minor.

cheers, Mike

p.s. I really hate doing the 'quote unquote' thing - the problem is it takes text in isolation rather than in context - a blight on modern society, very few bother to read and comprehend everything written - too many of us recognize 'bits' that we invariably react to

[balihr]

Yeah, I might have used a bad word (leechers), but keep in mind English is not my native language... The problem I was referring to was one that mc12345678 already mentioned - people come here, take a plugin, try it, don't like it and will not bother taking the time to tell everyone why they don't like it. Perhaps, if we had a public list of pros and cons, you would be able to read it and get a much better picture of what the plugin does. However, all we have is posts where people ask for help solving their problems, without ANY actual feedback on the plugin itself.

The one thing that bothered me most with your posts is that you were constantly saying "developers MUST be responsible for their plugins". No, that's wrong. Plugins are not limited to their authors - anyone can submit an update to the plugin. Including you. Download a plugin, add detailed readme files, instructions, screenshots and/or a link to a public YouTube video, pack the files and submit a plugin update - you'll be able to write a short description saying what you did and why you're updating the plugin. I'm sure the update will be very much appreciated.
You see - the community CAN be a community, and every member already has an option to participate. Most choose to just take what was given and either use it or complain about it, without giving anything back to the community.

Take a look at this plugin. See Version History? I "jumped in" and "hijacked" the plugin just by adding support for the latest versions after the original author couldn't do it. Should I now be responsible for supporting the plugin? If so, why?

Have you as a developer ever asked for help to write up the documentation?

No, because I don't have to. Every plugin has a "Submit an Updated Version" which you can use IF you want to. Quality documentation will surely be considered as an update.
If there's a bug, contact the author. If you don't get any replies, ask for help anywhere in the public forums and point out there's no response from the author in the official thread. Do NOT post in 10 different threads, be patient. If you can't wait and it's a critical bug, find a developer, pay for the fix and then submit an updated version yourself to help other people.

Moreso the post was about weeding out the wheat from the chaff

Who or what would be the chaff here? Developers who no longer support their plugins? Or plugins that don't work with the latest version of Zen Cart?
A) If developers - some have deceased. Some have abandoned the platform and no longer use Zen Cart, but their plugins are still pretty useful. Some have simply decided to share the code, but not support it - if it works for the user, good, if not, well, don't use it. The decision resides on common sense - if you're looking at a plugin that has no support thread, wasn't updated for 2 years and you can only find complaints about it - what do you expect to get after installing it, other than to join the list of complainers? No matter how much you need it, nobody's forcing you to use it.
b) If plugins - the fact that YOU are using the latest version of Zen Cart and the plugin doesn't work for your version does not mean the plugin should be removed (or buried). You'd be shocked to know how many people out there are still using version 1.3.7 or 1.3.8. And not to mention 1.3.9 - probably the most popular version. Let's stick to the topic and not go into upgrade debates... A LOT of plugins are still perfectly good for them. And, you never know when someone might hijack an old plugin and make it compatible with the latest version. That's why every plugin clearly shows the supported Zen Cart versions...

So, at the end of the day - we all CAN collaborate. The way I see it, problem starts with the average Joe who thinks he's just too average to be able to help and is not even aware of the power he holds in his hands...

P.S. Mike, I looked at your old post about custom product listings and I have some ideas. If you haven't heard back from anyone else by now, please PM me with more details and I might be able to do something. And here's an offer: I do the plugin, you do the descriptions and docs. Then everyone can have it from the plugins section. Just a heads-up - I won't be able to play with it before mid January...

[shags38]

Yeah, I might have used a bad word (leechers), but keep in mind English is not my native language... The problem I was referring to was one that mc12345678 already mentioned - people come here, take a plugin, try it, don't like it and will not bother taking the time to tell everyone why they don't like it. Perhaps, if we had a public list of pros and cons, you would be able to read it and get a much better picture of what the plugin does. However, all we have is posts where people ask for help solving their problems, without ANY actual feedback on the plugin itself.

Good reason to have suitable forums for such feedback - I for one would use it

The one thing that bothered me most with your posts is that you were constantly saying "developers MUST be responsible for their plugins". No, that's wrong. Plugins are not limited to their authors - anyone can submit an update to the plugin. Including you. Download a plugin, add detailed readme files, instructions, screenshots and/or a link to a public YouTube video, pack the files and submit a plugin update - you'll be able to write a short description saying what you did and why you're updating the plugin. I'm sure the update will be very much appreciated.
You see - the community CAN be a community, and every member already has an option to participate. Most choose to just take what was given and either use it or complain about it, without giving anything back to the community.

Take a look at this plugin. See Version History? I "jumped in" and "hijacked" the plugin just by adding support for the latest versions after the original author couldn't do it. Should I now be responsible for supporting the plugin? If so, why?


No, because I don't have to. Every plugin has a "Submit an Updated Version" which you can use IF you want to. Quality documentation will surely be considered as an update.
If there's a bug, contact the author. If you don't get any replies, ask for help anywhere in the public forums and point out there's no response from the author in the official thread. Do NOT post in 10 different threads, be patient. If you can't wait and it's a critical bug, find a developer, pay for the fix and then submit an updated version yourself to help other people.

Again, a suitable forum would encourage such feed back and 'action' - I was not aware that I could make adjustments to documentation and I am sure the majority of users also do not know.


Who or what would be the chaff here? Developers who no longer support their plugins? Or plugins that don't work with the latest version of Zen Cart?
A) If developers - some have deceased. Some have abandoned the platform and no longer use Zen Cart, but their plugins are still pretty useful. Some have simply decided to share the code, but not support it - if it works for the user, good, if not, well, don't use it. The decision resides on common sense - if you're looking at a plugin that has no support thread, wasn't updated for 2 years and you can only find complaints about it - what do you expect to get after installing it, other than to join the list of complainers? No matter how much you need it, nobody's forcing you to use it.
b) If plugins - the fact that YOU are using the latest version of Zen Cart and the plugin doesn't work for your version does not mean the plugin should be removed (or buried). You'd be shocked to know how many people out there are still using version 1.3.7 or 1.3.8. And not to mention 1.3.9 - probably the most popular version. Let's stick to the topic and not go into upgrade debates... A LOT of plugins are still perfectly good for them. And, you never know when someone might hijack an old plugin and make it compatible with the latest version. That's why every plugin clearly shows the supported Zen Cart versions...[/QUOTE]
I only upgraded from 1.3.9 to 1.5.1 earlier this year (about to update to 1.5.4) - for the reason you mentioned, I was happy with it and in checking plugins I found that a couple of the plugins I used were not valid for 1.5.xx so I had to wait (after making inquiries in support forums). So I agree that because a plugin doesn't meet the latest version doesn't mean it should be deleted, I never said that, but there should be an effort made to contact the author and ask them if they can upgrade it - if not then promulgate it in the suitable forum for someone else to stand up and do it, as you have done in the past. So it is about 'HouseKeeping', it is not an inquisition.

So, at the end of the day - we all CAN collaborate. The way I see it, problem starts with the average Joe who thinks he's just too average to be able to help and is not even aware of the power he holds in his hands...

Absolutely 'SPOT ON'!! - the average Joe, of which I am one, needs to be informed, educated to the fact that they can contribute - the challenge for the community is 'How do we do that'? ...... without sounding like a broken record a specific forum (with sub forums) is at least a starting point.

So balihr, we are so much closer now I think to common ground - I have learned a lot through this discussion.

I will PM you with details of plugin idea

cheers, Mike

p.s. if English is a second language to you then you have mastered it better than many who have it as their first!!

[frank18]

Good reason to have suitable forums for such feedback - I for one would use it


Again, a suitable forum would encourage such feed back and 'action' - I was not aware that I could make adjustments to documentation and I am sure the majority of users also do not know.

It may have been suggested earlier and if not, I voice it now:

Make it a requirement that every mod / plugin has it's own support thread where any issues can be discussed, good, bad or indifferent. This can be enforced by the appointed moderator who approves a submission.

Let's face it, most mods do have their own support thread already but many don't.

[swguy]

I apologize for not answering this thread before - I thought I had but apparently not.
For those who may not know, I am the plugin moderator.

The criteria for acceptance are simple:

a) License your code under the GPL (and only the GPL).
b) Don't do anything malicious.
c) Don't introduce security vulnerabilities.

That's it, that's all. Anything more stringent would just DISCOURAGE people from submitting work that could help you.

Yes it would be great if everyone thoroughly documented and supported their work, but contributors are busy and have their own responsibilities. Anyone who would like to take over an orphaned mod is most welcome to do so. People *do* take this work on from time to time, and as the moderator, I thank them. You may not even be aware that this has transpired.

I deliberately do *not* remove old unsupported mods because someone may need to download a copy for comparison during upgrade. When it is requested, I update the mod description saying that this mod is no longer appropriate for specific versions, or has been superseded by another mod, or whatever.

If you want something done that's currently not being done, you can hire someone to do it. You can even add as a condition of completion that the code be resubmitted to the plugins area. As a general rule, when I find bugs in other people's plugins, I fix them, and many other developers do likewise. And when clients request that I submit my work to the Plugins area, as a general rule I do so.

[RixStix]

This is an interesting read. One thing that I look for prior to installing any plugin is the presence of Un-Install instructions.

Based up swguy's list of criteria, maybe this document needs to be updated to reflect those requirements.

Documentation Requirements

1. Complete documentation for the contribution must be contained in the contribution's distribution zip file, preferably in a file named "README-addonnamehere.TXT". Using a URL shortcut/link to point to another website for readme and/or install/uninstall documentation is not acceptable.
2. The author should be acknowledged - and a single link to their site is acceptable, as is a tasteful request for donations (whereas a single statement about where to send donations is acceptable).
3. Prior authors/contributors should be acknowledged.
4. Documentation should include clear steps outlining what to do once the contribution has been unzipped, including where to put the unzipped files and how to do any database updates/changes.
5. Documentation should be written with the "newbie" in mind ... ie: Don't make assumptions that the person using the contribution has any more understanding than how to unzip the file. This helps address the lowest-common-denominator skill-set and helps minimize support questions which can cause frustration and time drain on the author to supply support.
6. Documentation should include uninstall instructions in case someone wants to cleanly remove the addon from their store ... without breaking normal operation or leaving old fragments/data behind. This should address any files to be removed, any folders to be removed, any permissions changes to be undone, and any SQL changes/deletions applicable to the addon.
7. Obfuscating or encrypting (such as via IONCube, Zend Guard, etc.) is *not* acceptable.

[keneso]

A bit late, nevertheless I'd like to comment as well.

I vote for leave it as it is, like already pointed out every single plugin has a reason to be, if nothing else as a testimonial to people who selflessly decided to share.
Not to forget some contributions work well in later version though tagged with earlier version/s.

I am not a developer, neither English mother language, shall I not contribute because I can't write a good readme file, or because I don't feel like keeping a support thread where I might not be able to answer a question regarding my contribution?

I'd rather have the option to download a plugin, and see if I can use it, than not having any option at all.

If it were for me I'd remove all support threads; don't get me wrong they are great, but so is the community itself, and what you don't get in one place you can get somewhere else.
I have used someone's support thread, and solved my issue, but I am sure if there was not such a thread I would have solved it by posting in another section; a person generous enough to contribute, and to eventually maintain a support thread would do the same in other threads as well if freed by that burden, being available (more time) to help others in other unrelated issues, and if someone has an issue with a given plugin could just ask the whole community, and maybe the issue could be addressed by someone other thatn the developer.

It bothers me more a person who asks a question, then posts back has solved the issue, but doesn't share the solution.

Although I might be considered a contributor I feel humbled by the knowledge of the true contributors, and developers, and even if sometime out of frustration for my lack of understanding I might think the developer could have done a better job in explaining I cannot expect, and pretend s/he should have; I can only be grateful for the opportunity given to me for at least trying.

[DivaVocals]

Not only should add-ons be approved as they are but the members of the 'approval committee' should periodically brows the support threads to ensure the developer is in fact responding to requests for assistance - some support threads I have visited have posts months old that have not been responded to - such add-ons should be suspended and a post put in the support thread by admin saying that the developer is not responding in the thread so that users do not leave a post and be left hanging, they may then elect to ask their question in a mainstream thread and hope another Zenner aside from the developer has an answer. The developer then should be contacted by Admin requesting an explanation.

Under your "rules" here's the explanation for the author of the ceon mods.. "ummm my apologies for not responding to posts on the support thread, I've been a little busy being deceased.."

Now pardon the sarcasm here, but there have been 3 regular COMMUNITY contributors (including one who develops and supports a competing mod) who have kept up Ceon URI free version support since Conor's passing, but under your proposed "rules" Ceon URI should be suspended because the developer isn't responding to questions..

Another example:
What about ALL of Clyde Jones contributions. Clyde passed away YEARS ago making it IMPOSSIBLE for HIM to respond to support requests. Many of Clyde's most popular modules have been kept alive simply because the COMMUNITY stepped up to keep them alive.. But under your rules, these modules should be suspended???

[DivaVocals]

Just because your not the original author doesn't mean you cant contribute and upload a better documented version of it.

Nothing in life is FREE, it's provided but if you want to make it your own then own it and stop bitching about it!

The two statements above are EXACTLY how I got involved with Super Orders, and Image Handler.. I am no "real" code developer.. I am a SITE BUILDER and I am CLEAR about this.. but in building client sites, especially in the case of Image Handler, I found the documentation lacking. The installation instructions were unclear, and the "how to use" instructions were equally unclear. I involved myself in contributing with the idea that I would contribute by improving the documentation and providing support since I considered myself a "power user" of the mod.. There are really MULTIPLE contributors to Image Handler.. I have just been the person submitting the code updates, keeping up the user docs and the dev repo for contributor code updates on Github.

Same thing with regards to Super Orders.. It had been community maintained for years, and I initially bundled up all the community supported fixes into an update NOT because I wanted to suddenly be responsible for every shop that installed it, but t share what had already been shared in the support thread and save other the time and trouble of having to cull through the support thread to find all the fixes/updates... Eventually with the assistance of another Zenner, we reunited the SO code back into the core admin files which effectively updating Super Orders to the latest version of Zen Cart.. Bottomline is that at this point there are SEVERAL contributors to Super Orders.. I have been maintaining a dev repo at Github where we contribute.. but under the proposed "rules" this mod should be suspended?? WTF???

[swguy]

I have been maintaining a dev repo at Github where we contribute.. but under the proposed "rules" this mod should be suspended?? WTF???

To clarify: these are not proposed rules. They're the opinion of one person posting on the forum.