The future: Bootstrap or Foundation? And why?

[DrByte]

I think it's MORE important to pick ONE framework for the admin and stick with it.

Agreed.

[DrByte]

Additional feedback is still welcome. Please focus on answering the original posted questions :)

[rbarbour]

I don't remember seeing ".... and talk about both the storefront template AND the Admin:" originally but could be mistaken.

And when it comes to frameworks most are front end!

I personally don't think your going to get usable data from any developers for we all have worked with both the major frameworks and both have their pros and cons, I for one think both Foundation and Bootstrap are bloated and overrated.

My original opinion on the storefront template remains, As far as the Admin Side:

a) Bootstrap vs Foundation vs None vs Other (which one?)
For the "ADMIN" side tooling. I would choose Bootstrap

b) WHY YOU CHOSE THAT ANSWER

There isn't a major difference between Foundation or Bootstrap, but I think Bootstrap:

1) Has Better Browser Support.
2) Is Less complicated.
3) Has a larger and more established following and support group.

At the end of the day, the decision lays on you and the development team. I quote " I think we'll just pick a tool we're willing to work with and go from there."

I think whatever tool is chosen, it will be supported by the community.

Should the next version of Zen Cart use a CSS/grid framework?

PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS .... and talk about both the storefront template AND the Admin:

a) Bootstrap vs Foundation vs None vs Other (which one?)

b) WHY YOU CHOSE THAT ANSWER

c) Are you answering as a storeowner, or as a programmer?



We're interested in understanding what's best for our community and would like your input on what will help make Zen Cart better for everyone.

Actually, the original thought behind the post was more admin-related.
But everyone's replied in the context of the storefront template.


That said, the majority of thoughts shared here related to storefront template are similar to my own opinions.
I'm a bit amazed at the very strong language expressed by so many about wanting the front-end template to be completely unopinionated by any framework. I did ask for opinions ... just surprised at how "passionate" those opinions actually are.


And yet I don't feel we've collected any usable data here with respect to how we integrate tooling for the Admin side. I think we'll just pick a tool we're willing to work with and go from there.

[DivaVocals]

I personally don't think your going to get usable data from any developers for we all have worked with both the major frameworks and both have their pros and cons

I expressed similar thoughts in the Git convo..

[rbarbour]

I think I may have seen that while I was stalking your posts on GIT

I expressed similar thoughts in the Git convo..

[DivaVocals]

I think I may have seen that while I was stalking your posts on GIT

Hey!!!! I stalk you.. not the other way around..

[RodG]

Actually, the original thought behind the post was more admin-related.
But everyone's replied in the context of the storefront template.

I'm also guilty of viewing this in the context of the storefront rather than the admin.

I'm a bit amazed at the very strong language
.

Either things have been edited, or you and I have a very different opinion over what constitutes 'strong language'

expressed by so many about wanting the front-end template to be completely unopinionated by any framework. I did ask for opinions ... just surprised at how "passionate" those opinions actually are.

LOL. Surely you jest. This is an Internet forum. Most of us wouldn't even be here if we were passionately opinionated. :-)

Some are just a lot 'nicer' in the way they express those opinions though. I'm not one of those people (as if you didn't know).

And yet I don't feel we've collected any usable data here with respect to how we integrate tooling for the Admin side. I think we'll just pick a tool we're willing to work with and go from there.

OK, so now that I know you are considering primarily the admin side of things, my opinion here is use whatever the Zencart Team deems to be the most suitable. It is you guys that will be needing to maintain and update this. Those of us that do code for the admin side of things tend to be more concerned/involved with functionality rather than how things 'look', and realistically, how many of us even change the 'look' (other than perhaps a few color changes) anyway? It isn't as though even the current system has much in the alternative layouts/templates/themes that have been created by 3rd party developers, so I can't really see this changing in any way regardless what framework you settle upon.

To take this a little further, I for one aren't even interested in having a 'responsive' admin section. I do consider this to be quite essential for the store front - but for the admin side of things, I only use a desktop machine anyway. I realise I could be the exception in this regard (but I don't think so), but even with a fully responsive template trying to do adminny stuff on a mobile device is generally more of a pain than an asset.

I'm not basing these views/opinions solely on my experience with ZenCart either. I have found that regardless of the eCommerce system being used, *most* people stick with however the admin section looks 'out of the box', so again, I state that the ZenTeam should use what works for them, rather than seeking preferences from us, because this latter approach is always going to piff someone off because you didn't go with their preference. IOW, just do it. We will work with whatever you guys decide - just like we always have done. :-)

There are just some things where asking for opinions is the same as asking for trouble. :-)

Cheers
Rod

[Nick1973]

Bootstrap and Foundation are both popular grid systems, however I believe the developer should be given a choice.

Bootstrap at least has a look and feel about it.... you can 'mostly' tell when a site is designed in Bootstrap. They are well developed, BUT can come with a price in that they take large amounts of Memory, particularly if using alot of JQUERY alongside them. I've looked at 'some' sites that use either of these on older machines using older operating systems and they can sometimes take much longer to load, when compared to another well developed site that doesn't use a framework on the same machine and OS. You could of course argue, 'well the end user shouldn't be using an older machine with an older OS or browser'. Reality needs to kick in here, people do, and thats a fact, and you can say what you like, but arrogance should not overtake reality here.

One of the big things for Google is page size. A smaller lightweight page size that loads faster and takes up less memory will be given priority in search ranks when compared to a cumbersome over developed website designed with a memory hungry grid system.

I think the developer should be given a choice. Personally I don't use either, I see developers using these all the time, however what happens when the next big thing comes along and the code becomes outdated? You could argue that it creates more work for the developer, which is good, but surely its better to work on a much more scaled down system. If you know what you are doing, then its not difficult to work on a simpler system with your own code. You also have the freedom to design your grid as you please on a blank canvas. This doesn't mean re-writing the book, but it does give you more control over how you want your code to work in combination with other core features of whatever web software you are using.

The beauty of Zen Cart is that it is simple from a Developers point of view. Maybe not so much from a 'Non-Developer's' point of view, but then there are other ecommerce platforms that aren't so simple too. I can think of one major name that is a Zen Cart Competitor starting with an 'M', however I hear people saying that it is cumbersome and slow, and also takes up heaps of memory on a server. Zen Cart does not take up alot of memory to run, which is good as it allows sites to load quicker, even when they become large. So I think it would be far better to work on how Zen Cart will work with the next big coding changes, taking advantage of HTML 5 elements and CSS 3 rather than thinking about which grid system should be included. For example, it would be good to see Zen Cart take advantage of video within product pages using HTML 5 controlled totally from the admin. I'm fairly sure this would be simple enough to include as part of the Zen Cart software build. That digresses a little but I just think it's better to concentrate on moving things forward in other ways.

I came across this system which could be useful as its a scaled down grid system http://thisisdallas.github.io/Simple-Grid/. Of course this is just an example, and perhaps the Zen Cart Development team could use this as a starting point to creating a much simpler grid framework to include with newer releases of Zen Cart.

However I still go back to having a choice. There are many ways to design a website, not all of us want to use a pre-developed grid, and it is easy to follow the crowd like sheep by using 'Bootstrap' or 'Foundation'. Who knows, Google may come along one day and say, 'we are allowing sites that DO NOT use 'Bootstrap' or 'Foundation' to take priority in search ranks over sites that use 'Bootstrap' or 'Foundation'. Imagine if they did and all those sites developed this way fell apart in search ranks. I would never say 'never', Google have a tendency to do things unannounced and be controversial. For example they may do this if they see sites using these frameworks as memory hungry.

So to end, I'd suggest a switch in the admin system, don't just expect people to use either of these systems as they aren't always the best. Leave the choice with the developer. Perhaps give the developer a system similar to wordpress too which allows development using whichever template/grid system they please with an uploader from the admin or allowing people to search for systems from the Zen Cart website. I'd suggest from a development point of view, this could be better for Zen Cart as a whole as it would allow people to develop full systems which could easily be installed too.

[Dayo]

To take this a little further, I for one aren't even interested in having a 'responsive' admin section. I do consider this to be quite essential for the store front - but for the admin side of things, I only use a desktop machine anyway. I realise I could be the exception in this regard (but I don't think so), but even with a fully responsive template trying to do adminny stuff on a mobile device is generally more of a pain than an asset.

I believe that is the case for 99.99% and why most people sort of gravitated to the front end view when originally answering. I think what people answered applied largely equally to both back and front ends.

A grid is a nice to have for the back end and these days, critical for the front end so when the good Doc asked, most answered from a view point of where it is really important.

To Dr B,
I don't really think most will care about the grid in the back end as such. Of course it is good to see it done for the rare cases they have to use a mobile device to access the back end, but a few questions come up.

Why even consider Bootstrap when Foundation is already bundled (in the installation). Whatever Bootstrap was used for in the PR could have been done with the already bundled Foundation. Okay, Foundation is only used as a one off in the installation but why not just keep things simple and recycle it in the admin and leave considerations for Bootstrap for another version.

Having had a closer look at things, in your shoes, I will stick with Foundation and Foundation 5 for that matter for this release.
It is already in place and why bring in something else. Furthermore, the current use of Bootstrap is of minor cosmetic value and even within the current scope needs to be significantly expanded for it to be worthwhile. It Basically only adds weight without much gain in terms of functionality and I would have rejected the PR myself.

Although I suppose the ZC Dev Team may have been thinking of building on this for future releases. In my view overall, I don't think the current Bootstrap implementation really brings much to the table and should be reversed IMO. As said, can be looked at again for v160 or later even. I would recommend sticking with F5.

As an aside, while you have asked about the back end, as said, people really only care that much on the front end in terms of the possibilities of Bootstrap. So once done for the back end, it stands to reason that it would be quite nice to have this extended to the default templates on the front end to have a nice out of the box experience as long as it is not made a requirement of everything done with the application.

Many people will simply edit/amend the default template and a nice bootstrap based one would be a good place to start. However, this should just not be hard baked into things in such a way that the option to do something else is taken away that's all. However, from the clarification post by Dr. B, this is not on the radar so Would just stick with what is already there as said.

Bootstrap and Foundation are both popular grid systems, ...

I disagree with almost everything written above. I do largely concur with the light standalone grid thing but the devs have gone down one path and no need to reinvent the wheel with some obscure tool.

[Nick1973]

Just to answer you Dayo, I probably wasn't clear enough in my response. I was talking about giving people a choice, not so much abandoning either Bootstrap or Foundation. As I said I don't use either, and don't really have to re-invent the wheel as a result. I probably should, but then I develop mostly in zen cart or other types of 'base' template systems that work equally as good, if not better. If you know what you are doing then it is easy enough to write a simplistic grid style template from scratch yourself without relying on pre-written code. Which doesn't really require a re-invention of the wheel providing things are kept simple. But hey, thats my view.