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  1. #1
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    Default Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    155f | php 7.1 | CEON 4.5.5

    I am posting this in this General thread (and not specifically in the CEON thread) as in my opinion it has / can have a marked effect on the performance of Zen Cart websites for those using CEON, and it is likely that they do not know that it is adversely affecting the optimization of their business(es) (if I am right that is) - hence I didn't want to hide this in that particular thread.

    My issue was / is categories not ranking as well as I believe they should be so in digging deep I arrived at what I believe is lack of the interaction of product linking when CEON URI Mapping is installed and enabled - versus when not. This is only true if the following para is a correct assumption.

    With CEON disabled if a product is linked from its Product Main Category to other categories then the url for that product will reflect the category in which the product is in when clicked, i.e. if the item is in 5 different categories it can have 5 different url's (all ending with the same product id, for canonicalisation I presume). So my assumption is that this has the advantage of showing Google that the product lies in whichever category the customer may click on the product from - hence better link juice for that category and hence better prospects for ranking better (optimally - Google is seeing the product in more places). No doubt this was part of the thinking when the system was set up..... am I correct in saying this??

    With CEON enabled the url reflects only the category in which the product was initially set up, regardless of any subsequent changes to main category - regardless of how many categories the product may reside in when the product is clicked in the url resolves to the category in which it was established. So this appears to entirely negates any SEO benefit of the linking system when CEON is not enabled ... (only correct if previous para is correct)

    If my thinking is correct then that results in less than optimal SEO performance for any Zen Cart site using CEON which I think is something as many users as possible need to be aware of (if I'm correct - if not then disregard).

    I am not seeing anything in the configuration nor FAQ's in CEON regarding linking products period let alone a workaround for linking products. Having said that I am aware through my own experiences that CEON is extremely complicated, for those of us who are not coders, in its set up which apparently enables it to do all manner of wonderful things - and apparently more so if you use their 'Commercial version' which is apparently still not available.

    This is not a whinge about CEON but moreover the expression of what I see as a possible flaw in the interaction between Zen Cart and CEON - again, if this is the case and I am not deluded or way, way off track.

    If there is a fix for this issue I really look forward to it.

    I'm trying to get the best SEO performance and hence best sales performance from my Zen Cart sites - a better understanding of the above will help greatly

    cheers,
    Mike

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    There is no commercial version of URI mapping. There is a add-on/commercial Mappings Manager to create/manage the mappings which is worth having. There is no extra functionality.
    Every category can have it's own static url, but a linked product therein, will have the static url of the product's master category. The mappings are based on the product ID, of which there is only one, hence only one mapping is possible per product.
    You are suggesting linked products should have their own category-dependent mapping, based on the category path instead of the product ID. I imagine that is a pile of work to implement (you could ask CEON), but that need is based on unproven assumptions.
    Maybe you are right, hard to prove.
    Steve
    github.com/torvista: Spanish Language Pack, Image Checker, Structured Data, BackupMySQL Admin/Auto, Product Listing Sorter, Redsys payment module...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Quote Originally Posted by torvista View Post
    There is no commercial version of URI mapping. There is a add-on/commercial Mappings Manager to create/manage the mappings which is worth having. There is no extra functionality.
    Every category can have it's own static url, but a linked product therein, will have the static url of the product's master category. The mappings are based on the product ID, of which there is only one, hence only one mapping is possible per product.
    You are suggesting linked products should have their own category-dependent mapping, based on the category path instead of the product ID. I imagine that is a pile of work to implement (you could ask CEON), but that need is based on unproven assumptions.
    Maybe you are right, hard to prove.
    Thanks Torvista - I appreciate your response.
    You are suggesting linked products should have their own category-dependent mapping, based on the category path instead of the product ID. I imagine that is a pile of work to implement (you could ask CEON), but that need is based on unproven assumptions.
    Maybe you are right, hard to prove
    Reading the post again you will note that I stated that when CEON is disabled that the standard dynamic ZC url system does show a category specific url for the product determined by what category the product is linked from - i.e. if the product is linked to 3 different categories the url will be different from each category.

    So given that ZC doesn't have a built in 'user friendly url' option ZC users rely on third party plugins - ZC developers are supposed to test the functionality of the plugin and its interaction with ZC. In this case the plugin doesn't do all the functions of the built in url generation that it is supposed to be replacing.

    The plugin developers didn't make sure that they covered all functions required to generate required urls and ZC developers didn't check

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Another issue with the Product Linking and CEON has also become apparent since creating the thread.

    Given that CEON does not change the url of a product when the master category for the product is changed then when generating a Google Merchant data feed for Google Ads the urls are directing customers who click on the ads to the product but not necessarily in the category that the product now belongs to - hardly effective use of advertising funds.

    It is just another example of the inadequacies of SEO structures in the ZC platform.

    I have no idea if USU (Ultimate SEO Urls) plugin copes with this either.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Quote Originally Posted by shags38 View Post
    Another issue with the Product Linking and CEON has also become apparent since creating the thread.

    Given that CEON does not change the url of a product when the master category for the product is changed then when generating a Google Merchant data feed for Google Ads the urls are directing customers who click on the ads to the product but not necessarily in the category that the product now belongs to - hardly effective use of advertising funds.

    It is just another example of the inadequacies of SEO structures in the ZC platform.

    I have no idea if USU (Ultimate SEO Urls) plugin copes with this either.
    FWIW, I've just verified that USU (v3.0.4) will regenerate the URL with an HTTP 301 (Moved Permanently) response in this condition.

    Using an install, granted zc155f, with the demo products, I created a copy of the Matrox G400 -32MB product into the Hardware/Graphic Cards category, resulting in this URL
    Code:
    http://localhost/zc155fusu/hardware-c-1/graphics-cards-c-1_4/matrox-g400-32mb-copy-p-180.html
    While that product was displayed on the storefront, I then moved (changing that product's master category) the product to the Test Examples category and refreshed the storefront screen, resulting in the following link being displayed after that HTTP 301:
    Code:
    http://localhost/zc155fusu/test-examples-c-23/matrox-g400-32mb-copy-p-180.html

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Quote Originally Posted by lat9 View Post
    FWIW, I've just verified that USU (v3.0.4) will regenerate the URL with an HTTP 301 (Moved Permanently) response in this condition.

    Using an install, granted zc155f, with the demo products, I created a copy of the Matrox G400 -32MB product into the Hardware/Graphic Cards category, resulting in this URL
    Code:
    http://localhost/zc155fusu/hardware-c-1/graphics-cards-c-1_4/matrox-g400-32mb-copy-p-180.html
    While that product was displayed on the storefront, I then moved (changing that product's master category) the product to the Test Examples category and refreshed the storefront screen, resulting in the following link being displayed after that HTTP 301:
    Code:
    http://localhost/zc155fusu/test-examples-c-23/matrox-g400-32mb-copy-p-180.html
    Hi Cindy, many thanks for your encouraging response and taking the time and interest to do this - glad to see that USU does the job. As you may recall I want to move back to USU but having been on a roller coaster with both USU (in the past) and then CEON and I really am hesitant to go through the pain again of Google having to re index new url's in changing back to USU. The only way I can think of to ease that situation is to export all existing CEON product url's (hundreds) and generate manually a USU version in a spreadsheet using the predicted USU format for that category/product correlating to the CEON version and then create a 301 redirect 'list' - then on a given day disable CEON >> install and enable USU >> upload the 301 redirect list to .htaccess and regenerate SiteMap XML - all within a few hours of a given day prior to the crawl time of the cron job in place.

    In your opinion would that work?

    It will be a lot of manual work but then hopefully with you looking after USU it should be better sailing into the future than with CEON.

    Looking forward to your thoughts.

    cheers,
    Mike

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Oye... love the lack of fact in the midst of all the "anger" leading to all sorts of other things that may be regretted.

    A uri for a product that is linked is different from any other instance of that product by the parameter cPath which effectively tags the product as a sub-member of the category.

    A product that has a uri generated in Ceon when accessed from a category where it is linked also has a cPath parameter added to it to identify that it is in some way different from the master category version of the address. Contrary to the first post of this thread, that information is in fact covered in the instructions. I believe it is item 9 under the FAQ section and can be found by searching the text for cPath where it describes linked product. The link for the information is found at: _docs/sections/faqs.html#linked-products

    Have you even looked at the Google website administrator tool and how it is possible to identify the purpose of each parameter in the URI of a website to be able to identify the intent of the parameter? Even if you didn't specifically assign the meaning, Google figures it out pretty quickly and does not identify the parameter cPath as a product specific parameter but instead one that places it in a grouping... Have you looked at the canonical link of product? No cPath… Don't know what you tree you're barking up.

    Now looking further at the complaint, it appears that you want the program that is designed to keep a constant URI regardless what has happened to the underlying configuration to just randomly change values? Tell me, are you upset that if you change the name of the product that it doesn't automatically change the web address as well? That, after all, appears to be a major part of your issue in that you went and made changes and the web facing information didn't "automatically" update to reflect the changes. Isn't that made obvious about the program as provided in the plugin's forum and instruction that the web addresses are not generated until something is done to specifically request or identify them?! How is this suddenly a surprise?

    You go on to say that the product won't show up in a page about a category? What? Do you have some sort of product removing feature in your site to prevent a product that is in a master category from being displayed in the category to which it is linked? What are you talking about?

    If you want a URI to exist to a product that is reached by whatever other "category" path, you can always create it and it will become a part of the store to be used whenever desired. But as balihr said, there is one actual URI to a product whether that uri contains a cPath parameter or not.

    I'm curious with all of your knowledge, money, and time spent on SEO,
    what "functionality" specifically has not been met in offering a way for website owners to create URIs that they believe are right for their own business? I mean further, you are an expert on the product you sell aren't you? You should know exactly what it is people wanting your product should be using to search for it, so why are you expecting other "programmers" to figure it out for you?

    Complicated setup? Oh right you're still using version 4.5.5... From what I've seen of Version 5? There is very little "difficulty" in installing... In fact, for you having already installed version 4.5.5, it probably would be more effort to remove it. I think someone reported that there were something like 35 files that had to be modified/removed in order to remove such an older version. But then again, considering the level of investigation made to offer the fiction of this thread, it doesn't surprise me that you are unaware of a newer version. Obviously haven't looked for nor at the site where you would likely find the commercial product you said didn't exist.

    All I'm seeing is that there is some sort of SEO issue with your site and that you are again (what is this like the 10th or 11th time) looking for something external on which to blame it.

    It is unfortunate that you are unable to figure out how to use a program to meet whatever it is you want it to do, which really is unclear... What I think, from reading each of your posts about how someone has wronged you somehow, is that you would like there to exist a uri for each category in which the product is linked so that you can publish such link where it would be true that the product could be reached using each of the categories in which it is linked.

    You have the right and ability to generate a new URI at any time for any product, category, ez-page, or manufacturer and any previous URI will remain accessible to reach the product but there will still be only one primary address for the product, category, ez-page, or manufacturer.

    If you change the master category and don't update the URI, that is on you. If you change the name of the product and don't change the URI, that is on you. If you edit the database and muck up the links, that is on you.

    The fact that you didn't find anything about linked product within the documentation of the plugin, specifically saying that you have read the FAQs section? Wholly cow, then I'm not sure that there is anything that can be done to break it down for you. In closing, I truly wonder (and miss) what the late RodG would have said, knowing that regardless it would have been interesting reading.
    ZC Installation/Maintenance Support <- Site
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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Quote Originally Posted by mc12345678 View Post
    ... In closing, I truly wonder (and miss) what the late RodG would have said, knowing that regardless it would have been interesting reading.
    agreed!

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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    @RodG
    “The Australian Kangaroo Tail”

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    Default Re: Product Cateegory Linking - issues when using CEON URI Mapping ??

    Hello mc - it appears I have got your gander up and it is also apparent you have me 'branded'. Some of your comments are quite personal, hardly appropriate in a public forum .... and your assumptions about me and my 'intentions' are way out of line. That being said 'onwards and upwards' - water under the bridge.

    It is difficult to be objective when you have your gander up - I get that. I am not a fan of CEON URI Mapping (SEO) as you well know - some like it, some don't - I know you are a big fan and are passionate about it as are some others and of course it appears you are what I term the 'custodian' of the plugin

    So from your post there are a number of things that need clarification, particularly for others that may read this thread;

    The first thing I want to address is down the page at para 5 "Now looking further at the complaint" - that goes a long way to me understanding your response - you didn't quite read the post properly nor understand the reason for the post - you saw it as an attack on CEON ... it was not a complaint albeit you have every right to view it that way if you so desire. Throughout I continually use terms like 'my assumption', 'if I'm correct', 'if I'm not correct then disregard', 'am I correct in saying this?' and tail off with 'a better understanding of the above will help greatly' - hardly complaint terms (??). I was certainly expressing my disappointment that CEON does not do what the core Zen Cart program does when handling Product Linking ... and as stated I was trying to validate / understand how ZC handled the linking and why CEON didn't ... and I didn't want to hide the post away in the CEON thread as it would not get the same readership. This is not about CEON (specifically) nor about you and your absolute faith in the product. As much as I am not a fan of CEON, as many are not (lets be fair and call it a 50/50), the post was critical of CEON only in respect to the fact that it does not handle Product Linking the way ZC does - my query was / is why not?

    The last thing I want to happen here is that an argument ensues over 'opinions' which should be able to be freely expressed in the forums without abuse or derogatory personal statements. Having said that I do believe that CEON as much as it is touted as the best SEO program in the world - is lacking in 'certain functionality' that the basic url handling of ZC core does provide - and I have have expressed that - one reason is that maybe, maybe some web developer will read it and think twice about which url rewrite program to install for their client based on required functionality - or a web owner for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by mc12345678 View Post
    Oye... love the lack of fact in the midst of all the "anger" leading to all sorts of other things that may be regretted.
    not a good start to a response to an enquiry - as you read on you will see that there is substance to what I was trying to say

    A uri for a product that is linked is different from any other instance of that product by the parameter cPath which effectively tags the product as a sub-member of the category.

    A product that has a uri generated in Ceon when accessed from a category where it is linked also has a cPath parameter added to it to identify that it is in some way different from the master category version of the address.
    Contrary to the first post of this thread, that information is in fact covered in the instructions. I believe it is item 9 under the FAQ section and can be found by searching the text for cPath where it describes linked product. The link for the information is found at: _docs/sections/faqs.html#linked-products
    Just so the air is clear here - I did go through all instruction pages because I thought that maybe I had installed or configured incorrectly and that is why the function didn't work - I checked out FAQ and there was not question / topic listed with an answer about functionality for Linked Products - I certainly wasn't looking for the question / topic "A string beginning with “?cPath” is being added to the end of a product's URI." - that was not my issue.

    Have you even looked at the Google website administrator tool and how it is possible to identify the purpose of each parameter in the URI of a website to be able to identify the intent of the parameter? Even if you didn't specifically assign the meaning, Google figures it out pretty quickly and does not identify the parameter cPath as a product specific parameter but instead one that places it in a grouping... Have you looked at the canonical link of product? No cPath… Don't know what you tree you're barking up.
    Yes I have - other than a few all my CEON generated url's do not have a cPath included so I put my hand up here - not sure what the point is you are trying to make - edify me please.

    Q
    Now looking further at the complaint, it appears that you want the program that is designed to keep a constant URI regardless what has happened to the underlying configuration to just randomly change values? Tell me, are you upset that if you change the name of the product that it doesn't automatically change the web address as well? That, after all, appears to be a major part of your issue in that you went and made changes and the web facing information didn't "automatically" update to reflect the changes. Isn't that made obvious about the program as provided in the plugin's forum and instruction that the web addresses are not generated until something is done to specifically request or identify them?! How is this suddenly a surprise?
    Partially handled above - Zen Cart core does change url 'automatically' and so does the other rewrite plugin available (USU) - it was a fair expectation on my part that CEON would replicate the 'functionality' of ZC url changes for Product Linking even though I did know that it didn't do it in other situations and that generally each url had to be changed manually (Mapping Manager apparently assist with that?) - so in my humble opinion that I expect to be able to express I believe that was / is an oversight in the CEON product. I do not know the historical chronology of the Product Linking function availability in ZC releases VS the release of CEON URI Mapping (SEO) but even if the functionality didn't exist in ZC at the time CEON was released it should have been added once ZC was changing url's in its core.

    You go on to say that the product won't show up in a page about a category? What? Do you have some sort of product removing feature in your site to prevent a product that is in a master category from being displayed in the category to which it is linked? What are you talking about?
    not sure if this may be an interpretation thing - what I was an obvious example of what was not happening in CEON vs ZC dynamic, saying is that with ZC dynamic a url is generated for a product outside of its Master category - so there is a specif link to that product i.d. in whatever category it is listed in - again 'automatically' generated - this doesn't happen with CEON nor with USU, in both cases a specific url needs to be created - so simply a statement of example. This lack of functionality in my humble opinion diminishes the SEO value provided by ZC core url generation in that each of those urls can be used for linking in advertising, customer notifications, newsletters etc and the link will resolve to the product in the specific category that you want it to be seen in - not simply directed to the master category.

    Another strong argument for those not in favor of url rewriting

    If you want a URI to exist to a product that is reached by whatever other "category" path, you can always create it and it will become a part of the store to be used whenever desired. But as balihr said, there is one actual URI to a product whether that uri contains a cPath parameter or not.
    Fully understood - covered above.

    I'm curious with all of your knowledge, money, and time spent on SEO,
    what "functionality" specifically has not been met in offering a way for website owners to create URIs that they believe are right for their own business? I mean further, you are an expert on the product you sell aren't you? You should know exactly what it is people wanting your product should be using to search for it, so why are you expecting other "programmers" to figure it out for you?

    First part about functionality covered up the page - second part about wanting programmers to figure it out for me. I do not want any programmer to get anywhere near my products, at all. What I have sought over the years in here is better ways to market my (any) products on the website. Whilst improving code functionality, security and updated protocols etc is a major focus by ZC developers it rests with community members to a) come up with ideas for better / different marketing functions / tools and b) for someone to develop the plugin if they (and others) deem it to be advantageous. I cannot do the latter, I do not have the skills - I can though do the former - I'm an ideas man, lots of dumb impractical ones but occasionally a gem arises. If you were alluding to wanting programmers to modify existing programs to suit my purposes - sure I throw it out there - if you don't ask you don't get.

    Complicated setup? Oh right you're still using version 4.5.5... From what I've seen of Version 5? There is very little "difficulty" in installing... In fact, for you having already installed version 4.5.5, it probably would be more effort to remove it. I think someone reported that there were something like 35 files that had to be modified/removed in order to remove such an older version. But then again, considering the level of investigation made to offer the fiction of this thread, it doesn't surprise me that you are unaware of a newer version. Obviously haven't looked for nor at the site where you would likely find the commercial product you said didn't exist.
    ..... as stated above I was aware of version 5.?.? before you I believe, a few days before it was submitted by CEON to ZC ... on 23rd May 2019 pickandmix posted about new 5.0.0 being available - I commented straight away - check it out here https://www.zen-cart.com/showthread....38#post1357838 .... I was interested in using it in a 1.5.6c upgrade build I was doing but wanted to also use the then unavailable Commercial Mapping Manager so that I had the full suite ...... I wanted to purchase it so contacted CEON - the Commercial Manager product was being revamped according to the last correspondence I had with CEON on 22/23 May 2019 ... still waiting for CEON to respond which they said they would do once it was available for purchase. (I have the emails in my archives if you want to see them). I even made contact with a distributor of CEON products to see if they had available the old version but they no
    no longer sold CEON modules (Ticket ID: #711833 - Subject: Purchase CEON URI Manager (Commercial) - Status: Answered - Ticket URL: https://my.jsweb.uk/viewticket.php?t...833&c=dUaYtnaJ

    All I'm seeing is that there is some sort of SEO issue with your site and that you are again (what is this like the 10th or 11th time) looking for something external on which to blame it.
    this is an example of the 'branding' I mentioned at the beginning. Yes I post a lot - a lot - about things that in my opinion affect SEO or could 'possibly' be implemented to improve SEO - not solely for me but for all users. Some of what I post is out there and not practical - others have been adopted. I concentrate on the SEO aspects of ZC because I do not have the skills to work on other things. If you perceive that I 'expect' programmers to do my bidding you are sadly mistaken. I put the feelers out - I have even posted in Commercial Help Wanted for some responses to some plugins I would like to have. Very little response indeed - same goes for SEO thread - only a few bother to respond to queries, disappointing really.

    I do not want to get into argument about ZC and its pluses and minuses - every platform has some of each - however I am certainly not the only one who thinks this and I have said it a few times over 10 years or so in different 'conversations' ... whilst it probably sits at the top of the rankings for many other things ZC has fallen behind in the product marketing side of things (subject well worn but certainly worth another thread if someone wants to start it).

    So yes I keep plugging away.

    It is unfortunate that you are unable to figure out how to use a program to meet whatever it is you want it to do, which really is unclear... What I think, from reading each of your posts about how someone has wronged you somehow, is that you would like there to exist a uri for each category in which the product is linked so that you can publish such link where it would be true that the product could be reached using each of the categories in which it is linked.
    'wronged' is not exactly the appropriate wording - if you had said that I have a number of times posted about how my website(S) performance has been affected by lack of functionality or integration of plugins that have a bearing on SEO the you are absolutely correct .... and those issues were 'real' issues that actually affected the search performance of some of my sites, undoubtedly, and those errors were corrected such that the plugins did what they were supposed to do in integrating url generation between them - one fix took 10 months or so. I shouted (metaphor) loud and clear that I was not happy - would you be happy if the products you had invested in and were selling were not being shown in search as they should have been because Google could not find the url's which meant that customers didn't find them?? - Google is smart and getting smarter but if tell it to go this street and they find nothing there do you think they will waste time searching for something their algorithm says doesn't exist. this lack of integration / cooperation between ZC core and plugin A and plugin B has happened a number of times resulting in less than optimal SEO structure. Hardly acceptable for such a revered platform such as ZC don't you think?

    I have a theory on this but I am likely wrong so don't crucify me over it - I use 1.5.5f, the last version update before the significant v1.5.6 version was released. A number of plugins that didn't get adjusted to work properly on 155f were for want of another term 'passed over' as all the concentration was on getting plugins to work with this major change version. Some (not all) of the problems I encountered were a problem ONLY in v1.5.5f

    You have the right and ability to generate a new URI at any time for any product, category, ez-page, or manufacturer and any previous URI will remain accessible to reach the product but there will still be only one primary address for the product, category, ez-page, or manufacturer.

    If you change the master category and don't update the URI, that is on you. If you change the name of the product and don't change the URI, that is on you. If you edit the database and muck up the links, that is on you.
    understood

    The fact that you didn't find anything about linked product within the documentation of the plugin, specifically saying that you have read the FAQs section? Wholly cow, then I'm not sure that there is anything that can be done to break it down for you. In closing, I truly wonder (and miss) what the late RodG would have said, knowing that regardless it would have been interesting reading.
    covered earlier.

    In conclusion - I hope this clears the air somewhat mc123456789 - you have been very helpful to me with a number of things over the years and I must admit I found this response of yours out of character. I hope this doesn't affect things going forward.

    cheers, Mike

    p.s. my initial reaction to seeing your post was to ignore it but then I considered it important to offer my side of things

 

 
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    By kirti in forum All Other Contributions/Addons
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 16 Mar 2012, 02:01 PM

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disjunctive-egg
Zen-Cart, Internet Selling Services, Klamath Falls, OR