Some thoughts about the admin

[nels267]

I'm just greatful for Zen Cart. If it so terrible go out and spend your money on a program that does what you want. All this complaining on an open source (FREE) program? Stop complaining, if you don't like it write your own or spend your money!

Thank you to everyone involved in the developement of Zen Cart.

[sabastina]

As I always say, "This ain't Burger King."

Although I DO like the way the first post on this thread sounded, I love my ZenCart. I too appreciate that someone has taken the time to not only offer this great store to me for free, but that they are helpful as well when we need help -WHEN WE HAVE TRIED TO HELP OURSELVES FIRST.

As an artist and a psychology major, I have a great deal of respect for the Zen team for sticking to their vision instead of allowing demand to control the source code for the ZC. When programmers start losing sight of the vision that they had when they started a project, then the program ends up with tons of bugs, confusion and no documentation.

Do we stop to consider the number of people who are working on the coding? Probably not. Do we care that they have feelings? Hmmm...some of us don't...we just want what we think we need-and we want it NOW. We scream, complain, demand, suggest, and make ourselves and sometimes others look like idiots(NOT saying anyone in THIS thread has done this-but I have seen this in the old forums); all without the least bit of consideration for these people who are GIVING their TIME to us for free.

You know, they could be making alot of money with the skills that they have if they invested the ZenCart time into their own wants and demands...but they don't...they work towards creating something that helps thousands of people make their dreams come true - and they ask VERY LITTLE - if anything in return. All THEY expect is that you will LEARN to help yourself.

I've not been able to afford to donate to them, yet I get treated very well and helped when I show them that I have worked towards finding my answers. I'm sure if I wanted to pay them what their time is worth, they might work excusively for me for a while...but I like to learn this stuff and show I'm putting some effort into making my dreams come true.

Usually I'm a very nice person, but I am going to say what I have to say, and I'm going to be blunt:

Your store is YOUR vision. You are trying to make it what you want it to be for your needs. You don't want them coming to your store leaving comments like those you all leave here...

ZenCart is the vision of those who are developing it. Any of us who sit around here in their 'home' and throw these little fits filled with insults, rude critiques and demands, are darn lucky we're not banned like so many sites do. You don't tell an artist which colors, or materials to use...you let their visions come to life and you have a masterpiece...you tamper with them, you get crappy artwork...

Anyone who thinks they can build a better system - make your demands a reality yourself.

Now curiously, when I asked for help mapping the system I created and improving it, nobody came forward. Only one person donated to the admin help system I was developing to run concurrently alongside the offline database management system.

sabastina

[JollyJim]

Sebastina I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of my post. I was making the point there is a huge amount of work involved in Zencart and I had attempted to build a useful add-on. I was trying to point out from experience the sheer volume of work involved, then underline the fact (and the reality) that the Zen team have produced a huge engine which works - they simply don't have the time to manage another huge seperate project. Finally I was trying to point out just how unwilling people are to donate to anything - even when they are screaming for the solution and the donation could be as little as $2. The fact is they just Want, want, Want and are not prepared to put in any time, help or money. Hell, they cannot even be bothered to click a Google Adsense link. How bloody selfish is that?

I am astounded the Zencart team have the patience to support them.

In short, I was politely telling people, backed up by proven experience, to stop complaining and either donate to Zencart or pay for their contribiution and make it available. Perhaps I was too polite and it came across wrong.

How is this:
Yeah - great idea to revise the admin and management system. You gonna pay or devote the time to it? If not shut up and stop complaining!

Is that better?

[kuroi]

The forum font size is WAY too small, please increase it!! Not everyone on this list has 20/10 eyesight like whoever developed this forum, smile!!

If you use Firefox you can increase it yourself. Just press CTRL+. This used to be a problem on the IPB-based forum because of the fixed width, but with the new liquid layout, you are limited only by your monitor size. (For some reason you can't adjust the text size for this forum in IE, another good reason to switch to FF)

[kuroi]

The developers, if they are really interested in improving ZC *for* the community, should implement something like this.
Perhaps the first two items up for voting should be:
1. Standardizing how contributions work
2. Improving how to set attributes
ZC has a lot of potential and a small development team.
I have in the past commented about Macromedia's extension model -- the code is closed-source, the method of extending is open, consistent, standardized, and quite open!!
Such a method of standardizing contributions would pique the interest of advanced programmers who enjoy coding and store owners who require some specific functionality sooner rather than later.

Here's a contributor's take on what you say. I agree with the premise that the Admin is in dire need of an overhaul. Especially for those site developers who have clients needing to be let loose to maintain their own stores. I doubt the Development team disagree with this as much of the Admin seems to be leftover from OS Commerce.

One area that I felt was lacking was user access control. Although there was a contribution in this area, it was very basic and seemed to be no longer supported. So I picked it up, enhanced it, and released Admin Profiles. Now this contribution necessarily has to interact with all other contributions that a user has installed, so that should naturally make me inclined to agree with your suggestion that contributions should be standardised. But I don't.

It's not that I don't believe in standards, I do. It's just that I believe more in the energy and initiative that open source software unleases, and fear that once you start to apply the disciplines and structures that accompany professional software development cycles, you risk stiffling them. I can say without hesitation that if my contribution needed to be assessed for conformance to standards, I just wouldn't have done it. On the other hand I am happy for the Zen Cart community to decide freely for themselves whether it's a good contribution and worth using.

On the Macromedia Extension model i.e. closed source, open method ... well Admin Profiles was built on and earlier contribution, Admin Levels, and reading through the threads for other contributions, it would seem that it's not the only one to have a history like this, i.e. somebody has an idea, implements a basic contribution, gets bored wanders off; somebody else picks it up and takes it to a new level. My initial build of Admin Profiles used the core code from Admin levels, and although much of that has now been re-written, if it weren't for the open source model, Admin Profiles, and I suspect many other free contributions, would simply not exist.

[seethrou]

For the font size in Firefox, another option may be more convenient.

In => Tools => Options => Content => Fonts & Colors => Advanced
And inside there, you can set the font you like.

In addition, of course you can set the Minimum Font Size of you like.

[sabastina]

JollyJim,

Sorry! I wasn't intending my note towards you at all!

In fact, I tried to contact you off this thread but you are set for no emails or PM's.

I am interested in the project in your signature and am going to check it out atm.

How is this:
Yeah - great idea to revise the admin and management system. You gonna pay or devote the time to it? If not shut up and stop complaining!

I think that's a wonderful way to put it!

Sabastina

[JollyJim]

Hi Sabastina

No problem. Strange you say you cannot contact me via the forum PM or email. I have both settings enabled. How odd.

Try sending me a direct email using the ############## doc project as the domain name to send it to. Sorry to be so cryptic but I don't want to be accused of advertising LOL.

JollyJim@PRettysureyoucanfigurethisbitoutSabastina

regards

Jim

[sabastina]

I can't resist posting this little piece I wrote...feel free to use it, change it or whatever:

While I realize you are stressed, you need to understand how coding forums work in regards to helping people...it's not just ZenCart, it's pretty much the standard 'programmers law' as I've dubbed it...it goes like this:

I've spent years sitting at my [insert PC, Mac, Laptop as applies] staring at code for days until I ran out of [insert soda, coffee, pizza, beer as applies] and had to go get more.

I once worked on a project for [insert a number here between 3 and 36] months, only to lose it ALL due to an unexpected [insert special mistake-that OF COURSE was the computers fault].

I once went to an important [enter event here] with the imprint of a keyboard across my forhead from falling asleep whilst coding.

My idea of a shopping spree is finding that new ergonomical {insert product here} on ebay for a buck, because my [insert body part here] is KILLING me.

I can explain binary, algorythms, logic, & can work any my editing program with my eye's closed.

I've dedicated my life to coding - because it's what I love to do (believe me you HAVE to love it to do it longer than 6 months).

I WILL help you IF I know you are helping yourself.
(incidentally, they don't have special powers, they just know the code and can tell if someone hasn't helped themselves - like if members ask about something that is already listed 100 times on the forum in question).

If you attempt to demand my time and test my patience...I will let you know with blunt sarcasm.

If you cannot figure out how to use a search engine, then you should probably not try coding - I know a guy for hire.

If you can not read nor write a thread clearly at least 1 out of 3 times, you probably shouldn't be in forums at all...and WHY are you repeating yourself...I just POSTED the answer below - TWICE...

I am a blunt person who will lose patience with you fast because I have seen hundreds like you come and go and it doesn't really make a difference to me since you aren't all that interested in helping yourself.

I'm not answering you because you asked a stupid question, I was rude because you don't get my point; and when you push me too far, as I wrap up my final post to you, I'll just say:

READ THE DAMN MANUAL

(even if there isn't one because this refers to websearchs as well as any actual manual!)

And if you don't LIKE it, don't use my program.

And by the way, every single programmer that read this is likely to have noticed this above

{insert product here}

.

Developers are awesome when you approach them without demanding expectations...they can be BRUTAL if you don't...and it's amazing how quickly a thread will become dead when someone is disrespectful to the developer! You'll only find gossips and complainers left on such threads...



Yeah, that pretty much sums up most developer's forums...the people here at ZC are actually pretty nice and helpful...

I'm only letting you know how it is...

[kelvyn]

Although I DO like the way the first post on this thread sounded

Good start :)

Usually I'm a very nice person, but I am going to say what I have to say, and I'm going to be blunt:

Your store is YOUR vision. You are trying to make it what you want it to be for your needs. You don't want them coming to your store leaving comments like those you all leave here...

ZenCart is the vision of those who are developing it. Any of us who sit around here in their 'home' and throw these little fits filled with insults, rude critiques and demands, are darn lucky we're not banned like so many sites do. You don't tell an artist which colors, or materials to use...you let their visions come to life and you have a masterpiece...you tamper with them, you get crappy artwork...

Anyone who thinks they can build a better system - make your demands a reality yourself.

Oh dear - either:
You're not now talking about my post OR
You completely and totally failed to read it properly, and don't understand my point.

If the latter, I HAVE modded the cart. I've tweaked as best I can. But the admin side doesn't fully support over-rides, and I asked AGES ago whether the layout could be changed (after all, add more than a couple of contribs and the left hand menu rolls WAY off the screen, even at 1280x1024, meaning clever use of a 3 button mouse needed to click lowest items).

It's about priorities - the Zen Cart site looks fine now - it's fantastic. A billion times better than the tired old site. With all the things that Zen Cart does
need, what do you think a competition should be held for first?
The admin design? Better "store owner" documentation? Better standards for over-rides and plugins? No: "The preparations are being made to hold a template design contest for the Powered by Zen Cart Support Site."

There is NOTHING WRONG with the Support Site! I'm colourblind and have lots of trouble with sites, but the scheme, layout, design and colours work fine for me here. It's not broke, why not use people's skill and goodwill to re-design the admin?