SEO questions

Hi there :)

I'm hoping I can get some current information with regards to SEO. I've had my site for at least three years. With certain keywords, I am appearing on page 1 of Google. What I noticed the other day is that if I search one of my product names, I'm not ranking at all. This is confusing to me as I thought bots picked up product names. Even at ranking high with certain keywords, my site traffic is still pretty low.....less than 50 per day. One option I thought of was url renaming, however, threads I have read here recommend against it. Another option was to improve my meta tags but then I've read that doesn't really help either. That's left me totally confused as what to do. Why are my product names not coming up in a search? I know there are a lot of differing opinions with regards to SEO but I'm hoping there are some 'consistent' suggestions out there that can help get my site on the right track.

Thanks :)

jcrewe:

Hi there :)

I'm hoping I can get some current information with regards to SEO. I've had my site for at least three years. With certain keywords, I am appearing on page 1 of Google. What I noticed the other day is that if I search one of my product names, I'm not ranking at all. This is confusing to me as I thought bots picked up product names. Even at ranking high with certain keywords, my site traffic is still pretty low.....less than 50 per day. One option I thought of was url renaming, however, threads I have read here recommend against it. Another option was to improve my meta tags but then I've read that doesn't really help either. That's left me totally confused as what to do. Why are my product names not coming up in a search? I know there are a lot of differing opinions with regards to SEO but I'm hoping there are some 'consistent' suggestions out there that can help get my site on the right track.

Thanks :)

Content, content, and even more content. One caveat. The content needs to be relevant to what the customers may be searching for.

URL renaming might have a very small effect when comparing two sites that would normally rank equally, but the long term issues are generally far more bothersome than any benefits you would possibly gain.

Metatags are a mixed blessing. Correct and valid metatags (for any given page) can offer SEO gains, but 'incorrect' metatags (ie: a metatag keyword added where the keyword doesn't exist anywhere on the page) will have a negative effect, and the site could be penalised for 'keyword stuffing'. Use these with great care.

Page Titles. These have very recently taken me quite by surprise. They make a significant difference in the Google rankings (Don't know about other SE's).

I've "recently" had one site that used to have the name of the Store as the leading part of the page titles. It was ranking rather poorly for most of the search queries for his actual products. After I'd changed this so that the product names were the leading part of the page titles, the searches for said products slowly crept up from not being found at all to the number#3 position.

That was until a couple of weeks ago, and the client requested/asked for the Titles start with the store name once again. In less than a week, the same search query found the page had dropped to near the bottom of page#2.

We've now reverted back to having category and/or product names as the leading part of the page Titles, and am now carefully monitoring the situation to see how long it takes to creep back to the #3 position. The Pages/Site had no other changes other than this.

Having said that, what works "today" may not be as effective "tomorrow". The ranking algorithms are constantly being updated, and as many people have found over the years, it doesn't pay to try to 'outsmart' Google. It is their aim to rank sites with good customer orientated content higher than sites with lesser content, and I'd bet my last dollar that if the page title contains something like "This is a really great product" and the page itself has no content relating to that same text then like the 'old' practice of 'Keyword stuffing' such a site would be penalised rather than rewarded.

At the end of the day, the site needs to be written and designed for a good people experience, and never ever designed simply to get good SE rankings.

Cheers
RodG

Thanks Rod for your reply :) it is, however, clear as mud to me! LOL! I have done a lot of research on meta tags and how to set them up but I'm feeling like i'm still not grasping the concept :(

In my category Chocolate Bars, I have entered in the following meta tag keywords:
Attachment #15059

I think my keywords are relevant to the product, however, I am getting the impression from your response that if my keywords are not elsewhere in the product they will be irrelevant and make me rank lower....is that correct? If so, now I am totally at a loss at what I am supposed to do :dontgetit

With regards to re-written (pretty) URLs:
It's interesting that the so-called "debate" over the use of URL re-writers is unique to this open source project.. The Drupal, Joomla, Open Cart, WordPress, Presta Cart forums don't have many (if any) of these kinds of IMHO silly a$$ed pretty vs native URLs debates because the feature (pretty URLs) is a native ADMIN CONFIGURED OPTION that is part of the core code for all of these projects..

The long protracted discussions on this forum regarding pretty URLs are old and tired and mostly based on opinions that are rooted in "facts" that are no longer applicable.. Frankly some folks are truly sounding like the folks 30 or so years ago who used to make statements like "I don't know why anyone would need to own a personal computer"..

Bottomline is this.. Search engines are okay with native URLs from apps like Zen Cart AND the two CURRENTLY most popular URL re-writers are not the unstable error/bug prone beasts that were originally unleashed upon the unsuspecting Zen Cart masses when URL re-writer modules were 1st introduced..

So I say install Ceon URI or Ultimate SEO if you want to.. There is NO REASON to NOT have URLs which include keywords for your pages.. PERIOD.. and the argument that URL re-writers cause "more" damage to a site than any other kind of module is also unsubstantiated rubbish (my opinion) I often have seen pushed forth that is NOT backed up by any MEANINGFUL statistics to support that OPINION.. Oh except the one bit of "proof" most often offered is the LENGTH of the support thread.. Hell Image Handler's support thread is HUGE, and I don't hear anyone suggesting that it does "more" damage to your store than any other mod..

With regards to meta tags:
Search engines do not use meta tags for page ranking.. Google, Yahoo, and Bing have all made it clear that meta tags are no longer used to determine page ranking. They do use them for other reasons though so you should optimize your site's title and description tags. You can forget about the keywords meta tag.. Search engines do use this tag AT ALL for ANY REASON anymore.. (anyone who tells you otherwise is exercising wishful thinking.. just because I believe really hard in Santa, he is not real, and he is still a fictional character:laugh:..)

If you need proof that page rank is not determined at all by meta tags, then look at ANY Zen Cart site which is ranking well. Though some shopowners are using Zen Cart's built in meta tag features for product and category, most will not bother with this.. Beyond editing the title, description and perhaps the custom keywords in the meta_tags.php language file, the majority of site owners do not take the time to create page specific meta tags for the home page let alone for any of the other index pages in their site or even EZ Pages. all of this is currently managed in the meta_tags.php language file. There is also no native admin mechanism to set meta tags for the Manufacturers pages.

So with regards to meta tags, it's not about keywords.. It's about a good description of the page, and titles need to be just what they say, the title of the page. Please feel free to read what Google says on how to properly construct titles and descriptions. https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/35624?hl=en&rd=1

In my opinion, because of the way Zen Cart applies the custom keywords define from the meta_tags.php language file, it should not be used AT ALL for a few reasons.. The most obvious reason is that the keyword meta tag is ignored by search engines.. The other reason is that this define is concatenated to the keywords and description tags on ALL site pages, so it's use looks like keyword stuffing.. On some sites this looks can look quite spammy..

Zen Cart's native meta tagging actually violates some of the rules that the search engines use to delist sites. In particular:

• "Avoid keyword stuffing"
• "Avoid repeated or boilerplate titles"
• "Brand your titles, but concisely. The title of your site’s home page is a reasonable place to include some additional information about your site—for instance, "ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle." But displaying that text in the title of every single page on your site hurts readability and will look particularly repetitive if several pages from your site are returned for the same query."

For example, the "All Products" page meta tags natively generated look like this:

• **Title: **Consists of a concatenation of the following values including Page Title Text (the h1 tag) + Page Title Define + Site Tagline Define
• **Keywords: **Are an extract based on Product Categories + Custom Keywords Define (if there is a value defined)
• Description: Consists of a concatenation of the following values including: Page Title Define + Page Title Text (the h1 tag) + Keywords + Custom Keywords Define (if there is a value defined)

Suggest downloading and USING both the EZ Pages and Manufacturer meta tags plugins..

DivaVocals:

With regards to re-written (pretty) URLs:
It's interesting that the so-called "debate" over the use of URL re-writers is unique to this open source project.. The Drupal, Joomla, Open Cart, WordPress, Presta Cart forums don't have many (if any) of these kinds of IMHO silly a$$ed pretty vs native URLs debates because the feature (pretty URLs) is a native ADMIN CONFIGURED OPTION that is part of the core code for all of these projects..

Agreed, but that is why I consider the 3rd party URL rewriters to be a bad thing. It isn't really the rewriting itself (at least not initially) but rather the inconsistancy between the different modules and the way they are implemented, namely, via extensive modification of the .htaccess files.

These other systems don't have these same issues. The 'Pretty' URL's are internally generated, so as a general rule there are no 'ReWrites' taking place.

DivaVocals:

The long protracted discussions on this forum regarding pretty URLs are old and tired and mostly based on opinions that are rooted in "facts" that are no longer applicable.. Frankly some folks are truly sounding like the folks 30 or so years ago who used to make statements like "I don't know why anyone would need to own a personal computer"..

Frankly, these discussions (even this one) wouldn't exist other than the fact that some people seem to constantly confuse the difference between "Pretty URL's" and the 3ed party process of creating these URL's.

As far as I'm concerned (and always have been) is that the URL's themselves are unimportant, being neither beneficial or detrimental for SEO purposes.

DivaVocals:

Bottomline is this.. Search engines are okay with native URLs from apps like Zen Cart AND the two CURRENTLY most popular URL re-writersare not the unstable error/bug prone beasts that were originally unleashed upon the unsuspecting Zen Cart masses when URL re-writer modules were 1st introduced..

I can't argue against this either, but you did emphasis the key point of 'currently'. It is the future where the problems actually occur, and we see this time and time again as and when the (what should be a very simple .htaccess file) gets updated, modified, updated again, and so forth. It is only a matter of TIME before things go belly up, as is the case in another thread that I've been involved in over the last few days.

DivaVocals:

So I say install Ceon URI or Ultimate SEO if you want to..

And I say DON'T do this. By your own admission you state that they don't offer any SEO benefit, so therefore exactly what is the benefit of installing something that will probably eventually cause a problem if there is nothing to gain from it. This is just common sense.

DivaVocals:

There is NO REASON to NOT have URLs which include keywords for your pages.. PERIOD.. and the argument that URL re-writers cause "more" damage to a site than any other kind of module is also unsubstantiated rubbish (my opinion)

You sound like a broken record. When was the last time that anyone has said this? The closest that I'VE ever come to saying anything remotely like this relates to the fact that Rewriting a URL comes at a cost. The cost being that they take up CPU power, which can slow a site down, BUT, I haven't even said this for several years because computers have gotten faster and more powerful that this effect is now negligible.

DivaVocals:

I often have seen pushed forth that is NOT backed up by any MEANINGFUL statistics to support that OPINION..

Can you please direct me/us to a recent thread where these claims have been made (Anything in the last 12-18 months will do).

I'd like to know who is still spreading this misinformation ;-)

DivaVocals:

With regards to meta tags:
Search engines do not use meta tags for page ranking........

I agree with most of your comment here, except for one.

DivaVocals:

• "Brand your titles, but concisely. The title of your site’s home page is a reasonable place to include some additional information about your site—for instance, "ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle."

Up until last week I would have agreed with this, but this is exactly what caused my clients site to drop from the #3 position in Google down to near the bottom of page#2 (and I suspect it would have eventually disappeared into non existence (where we managed to pull it from) unless we took action to prevent a further fall).

My current advice to people would be to forget the 'branding' in the page titles, UNLESS the 'branding' is something that people are going to be searching for.
If people are more likely to be searching for a product then this product name should the 1st 'element' of the page of the page Title.

Please don't take my word for this. Try it yourself.

If you have a page Title (on a products page) that reads

"ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle. : Product Name"
and one that reads
"Product Name : ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle"

And someone searches for "Product Name" the second example will be near the top of the search results. The first example could be nowhere to be seen.

On the other hand, if someone did a search for "ExampleSocialSite" the opposite will hold true.

As I say, I've 'discovered' this with a very recent experience of a site raising up from from nowhere into 3rd place, then dropping back to the end of page two (and falling), and now it is slowly rising again (up 3 places in 24hours).

The only change has been to the page titles.. from
"ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle. : Product Name"
to
"Product Name : ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle"

and back again.

Actually, you don't even need to try this for yourself, just do a Google search for a product and look at the the 1st line in the 4 or 5 line results. This is the line in BOLD, and it is also the contents of the page Title. Take note of the top page results. The 'branding' or "ExampleSocialSite" is nowhere to be seen. The top results are those that contain the product name being searched for in the leading part of the page titles. (In fact it was this observation that caused me to make the initial changes on this clients site in the first place). It was with reluctance that I reverted it back so that the store 'branding' took this prominent place in the page title, and it really didn't take long (less than 2 weeks) to realise that this was a big mistake.

You may take or leave this advice as you see fit. All I can say for sure is that I've seen the evidence for myself.

Cheers
RodG

RodG:

Agreed, but that is why I consider the 3rd party URL rewriters to be a bad thing. It isn't really the rewriting itself (at least not initially) but rather the inconsistancy between the different modules and the way they are implemented

Ceon URI and Ultimate SEO are not inconsistent. They MERELY take two different approaches to solve the same issue..

RodG:

via extensive modification of the .htaccess files. These other systems don't have these same issues. The 'Pretty' URL's are internally generated, so as a general rule there are no 'ReWrites' taking place.Nope sorry.. this is not true.. Take Joomla and WordPress for example.. they both require rewrites to use their built-in pretty URL features and therefore include changes to the .htaccess file..

RodG:

Frankly, these discussions (even this one) wouldn't exist other than the fact that some people seem to constantly confuse the difference between "Pretty URL's" and the 3ed party process of creating these URL's.None of us are confused.. we all know how they work, and the authors do a pretty good job of explaining how they do..

RodG:

As far as I'm concerned (and always have been) is that the URL's themselves are unimportant, being neither beneficial or detrimental for SEO purposes.This is true.. so why oh why are folks so quick to scream DON'T DO IT.. It's a choice. You choose not to great.. good for you.. Someone else makes a different choice.. good for them.. You do realize that this is the ONLY open source forum that is even DEBATING this????

RodG:

I can't argue against this either, but you did emphasis the key point of 'currently'. It is the future where the problems actually occur, and we see this time and time again as and when the (what should be a very simple .htaccess file) gets updated, modified, updated again, and so forth. It is only a matter of TIME before things go belly up, as is the case in another thread that I've been involved in over the last few days.Sorry.. this is really NOT a compelling argument to NOT install one of these modules.. ANY MODULE could blow up in the future with one errant line of code.. Hell I could get into a car accident tomorrow.. not gonnna stop me from driving my car because it COULD happen..

RodG:

And I say DON'T do this. By your own admission you state that they don't offer any SEO benefit, so therefore exactly what is the benefit of installing something that will probably eventually cause a problem if there is nothing to gain from it. This is just common sense.Except they do offer OTHER benefits, and so there are OTHER business reasons to install them.. SMH.. I am constantly amused by the fact that folks here don't seem to think that folks can and should be allowed to have a choice on this matter.. I am also constantly amused by the fact that folks here still arguing against that choice seem very much out of touch with the rest of the open source world where this isn't even a debate AT ALL.. The so-called "problems" always eluded to with regards to these modules ALWAYS come down to USE ERROR.. pure and simple..

RodG:

You sound like a broken record. When was the last time that anyone has said this? The closest that I'VE ever come to saying anything remotely like this relates to the fact that Rewriting a URL comes at a cost. The cost being that they take up CPU power, which can slow a site down, BUT, I haven't even said this for several years because computers have gotten faster and more powerful that this effect is now negligible.I sound like a broken record?? Please.. the fact that folks around here are STILL rallying against pretty URLs is what is starting to sound like a broken record.. BTW.. I wasn't speaking about YOU persay when I said "the argument that URL re-writers cause "more" damage to a site than any other kind of module is also unsubstantiated rubbish (my opinion)".

RodG:

Can you please direct me/us to a recent thread where these claims have been made (Anything in the last 12-18 months will do).

I'd like to know who is still spreading this misinformation ;-)I'll be happy to send that info to you privately.. Not gonna drag other folks into THIS conversation..

RodG:

I agree with most of your comment here, except for one.Right.. Except three things..

A. This isn't MY list.. I quoted it from Google.. Hence the quotation marks around them and the reference to Google..
B. You've taken that list out of context.. Please re-read my post.. I preceeded that list with the following text: "Zen Cart's native meta tagging actually violates some of the rules that the search engines use to delist sites." What followed are things that you DON'T want to do..
B. Please NOTE that the example they are speaking of refers to JUST the home page.. It doesn't say append this SAME text to EVERY PAGE TITLE.. In fact it says the OPPOSITE.. That bullet point ends with "But displaying that text in the title of every single page on your site hurts readability and will look particularly repetitive if several pages from your site are returned for the same query."

In fact that is EXACTLY the point that I was making with regards to Zen Cart's native meta tagging functionality and it's SHORTCOMINGS.. (please go back to my VERY DETAILED breakdown of how Zen Cart's NATIVE meta tagging works..) So I don't need to test what's happening for your client.. I provided examples as to what is happening.. I kinda already have a good grasp of the native meta tagging feature.. It is lacking..

DivaVocals:

You do realize that this is the ONLY open source forum that is even DEBATING this????

Yes, and for the simple reason that ZenCart is one of the few CMS's that doesn't generate 'Friendly URL's' out of the box, so people try to circumvent this with 3rd party modules. I can only repeat once again, I (and most others, I assume) aren't anti Friendly URL's, we are anti having to use a 3rd party products that have been shown time and time again will cause problems. Whether these problems result from the software itself (which I admit is quite rare), or whether it is caused by 'User Error' isn't, in my opinion important. The end result is still the same, people come to the forum on an almost daily basis because something isn't working as a result of poorly written rewrite rules.

As there is little to no benefit to be gained from these rewrites I will forever insist that they simply aren't worth using. If the Friendly URL's were natively generated it becomes a whole new ball game, as these 'future problems' will no longer be an issue (Well, not until some smartass comes along with another 3rd part module that claims to do a better job than the natively generated Friendly URL's.

DivaVocals:

Sorry.. this is really NOT a compelling argument to NOT install one of these modules.. ANY MODULE could blow up in the future with one errant line of code..

This is true, but as a general rule, the benefits to be gained from most of these other modules far outweigh the risks of using them.
Since the 3rd part URL rewriting offer little to no benefit then the risks aren't worth taking.

Risk Management 101.

DivaVocals:

Hell I could get into a car accident tomorrow.. not gonnna stop me from driving my car because it COULD happen..

Again, this makes perfect sense, because the benefits gained by driving generally outweigh the risks of having an accident.

What if we add a little alcohol to the mix? This is known to dramatically increase the risk of having an accident, to the extent where the benefit to risk ratio becomes unacceptable... So much so that after a certain limit it becomes illegal to drive.
How is this any different to the URL rewriting scenario? It is just adding to the risks when there is no compelling reason for it.

DivaVocals:

Except they do offer OTHER benefits, and so there are OTHER business reasons to install them..

Bad choice of words. When you say 'other benefits' this is assuming that there was already at least one benefit to start with, and since the discussion was revolving about SEO benefits, which we all seem to agree are negligible at best) we only need to consider what benefits they do give.

I know of three benefits.

1. Where the URL is to be published in print media.
2. Where a page has been moved from its original URL to a new URL.
3. Security reasons (to redirect known exploits to a 'safe' page)

Can you give details of any other known benefits (I'm sure there must be, even though I can't think of any).

I still think it is absurd to take a perfectly good functional URL (that is natively created) and immediately redirect it somewhere else purely for cosmetic purposes.

DivaVocals:

SMH.. I am constantly amused by the fact that folks here don't seem to think that folks can and should be allowed to have a choice on this matter..
.

And I'm constantly amused at Developers that are afraid to tell their clients when they are making bad choices. If my customers want to do something that I know isn't good for them I will do everything I possible can to educate them of the error of their ways.

Yes, it IS the customers choice if they choose to drive a 4 cylinder car in a Formula One race (even if they do like the colour better) but I'm certainly not going to encourage them to do so. I'd rather explain why I think the car with the bigger engine is going to be better suited for their purpose.

The customer isn't always right.

DivaVocals:

The so-called "problems" always eluded to with regards to these modules ALWAYS come down to USE ERROR.. pure and simple..

That may well be true (I'm certainly not going to dispute this), but if they can avoid these problems by NOT using something that offers so little benefit then I'm all for advising people of this fact.

Again, it is a benefit/cost balance. Why incur a potential cost when there are no benefits to be gained? (or more precisely, the potential costs outweigh the benefits).

DivaVocals:

Right.. Except three things..

A. This isn't MY list.. I quoted it from Google..

That probably explains why I only found one 'fault' with what was written. ;-)

DivaVocals:

B. You've taken that list out of context.. Please re-read my post.. I preceeded that list with the following text: "Zen Cart's native meta tagging actually violates some of the rules that the search engines use to delist sites." What followed are things that you DON'T want to do..

You are also guilty of this. I was only discussing the page titles. The metatags were not part of the discussion (other than the mutual agreement that these aren't used by SE's for ranking purposes).

DivaVocals:

B. Please NOTE that the example they are speaking of refers to JUST the home page..

OK, I have to admit, that this important fact did escape my attention. However, I thought it was pretty obvious that my discussion revolved around the product related pages, and not the singular home page.

DivaVocals:

It doesn't say append this SAME text to EVERY PAGE TITLE.. In fact it says the OPPOSITE..

I'm sure that you are already aware of this, and since Google thought it worthy to mention the home page as a specific/special case, it is also worth noting that ZenCart has specific defines that are only used on the home page.

Specifically
HOME_PAGE_META_DESCRIPTION
HOME_PAGE_TITLE
and HOME_PAGE_META_KEYWORDS

DivaVocals:

So I don't need to test what's happening for your client.. I provided examples as to what is happening.. I kinda already have a good grasp of the native meta tagging feature.. It is lacking..

So you agree with my findings that having the product name as the leading part of the page titles in the product related pages make a significant improvement to the SEO rankings when people do a search for that particular product, and that the format of
"Product Name : ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle" is a far better option than
"ExampleSocialSite, a place for people to meet and mingle. : Product Name" ?

If so, then this particular 'argument' revolves around the fact that you were discussing the home page, and I was/am discussing the product/category pages.

If you don't agree with my findings, then I urge you as a friend to please at least try the changes I've mentioned, and if you don't get the same observable results I'll

1. Be very surprised
2. I'll need to take some closer observations to figure out why the changes I made had such a noticeable impact in rankings but didn't have the same impact with your tests.

Cheers
RodG

While all of the bantering has provided information/opinions on both sides of the coin, I have to very respectfully say that it's not all that helpful to my original question :( I think my original post got forgotten in the bantering..lol! I am really just trying to figure out what I can do to rank higher. I'm very happy to hear that Google is now focusing on Product Titles, as most of my Product Titles state what the item is, so hopefully this will automatically make me rank better. I'll skip the URL renaming module as I was really only considering it if it would help with ranking, which it doesn't. With regards to meta tags, I added a photo in a previous comment above.....is this right or wrong how I have entered information? The keywords I have entered ARE relevant to what I sell, however, not all the keywords are listed elsewhere on my site or on a product page....will that make me rank lower?

Thanks :)

jcrewe:

While all of the bantering has provided information/opinions on both sides of the coin, I have to very respectfully say that it's not all that helpful to my original question :(

Sorry about that. My original advice in post#2 still stands true.

jcrewe:

I think my original post got forgotten in the bantering..lol!

This happens almost every time in a discussion about 'SEO'. There's too many experts and we are all right in what we say, even though our opinions may differ.

jcrewe:

I am really just trying to figure out what I can do to rank higher.

Content, content and more content. Everything else is just 'icing on the cake'

jcrewe:

I'm very happy to hear that Google is now focusing on Product Titles, as most of my Product Titles state what the item is, so hopefully this will automatically make me rank better.
This has been my recent experience.

jcrewe:

I'll skip the URL renaming module as I was really only considering it if it would help with ranking, which it doesn't.

With respect to DivaVocals, I think this is a smart move. I am of the understanding that a future zencart version will have support for 'Friendly URL's' out of the box, and I suspect that when they do so it will be based on one of the existing 3rd party modules, which will be great for those people already using that particular module, but I suspect it will cause a bit of an update nightmare for those that have opted to use a different module.

jcrewe:

With regards to meta tags, I added a photo in a previous comment above.....is this right or wrong how I have entered information?

I need to be a little careful here because I'd like to avoid another of the inevitable debates that could come of it, so I'll start out by saying, no, that isn't the way I would being this.

jcrewe:

The keywords I have entered ARE relevant to what I sell, however, not all the keywords are listed elsewhere on my site or on a product page....will that make me rank lower?

In my opinion, and from all I have read on the subject, if these keywords are NOT on the page(s) where these keywords are used, then Yes, you do run the risk of being penalised. This isn't to say you will be penalised, because I do think there is a little bit more to it than that, for example, the number of keywords that don't have a match in the page content. My advise is to 'play it safe' and only include keywords that do exist on the page.

My other comment about the 'keywords' that you have used, is also a very contentious issue, and that is, many of your 'keywords' are in fact 'key phrases'. Where you have "Personalised chocolate bars" (which is a phrase) I would have
"Personalised", "chocolate", "bars" (which are 'words' and not 'phrases')

My logic here is that if someone searches for "chocolate bars' there won't be an exact match with your 'keywords', but with my approach, the same search query will find two matches. One for chocolate and one for bars.

Whether the partial match based on two of the three words will 'outrank' my two exact matches or not is something that is going to be difficult, if not impossible to prove. I like to think that two exacts will trump one partial though.

As for the 'description' section from your screenshots, I'm not too happy about this either. It doesn't read like a description to me. It looks a lot like a variation of your 'keywords'. I would be changing this so that it actually describes the content of the page.. For example
"We sell personalised chocolate bars for Birthdays, Weddings, Birthday announcements and more".

Your current 'description' has obviously been written for a Search Engine rather than people.

As I stated in my 1st reply "At the end of the day, the site needs to be written and designed for a good people experience, and never ever designed simply to get good SE rankings".

That's it. I've nothing more to add.

Cheers
RodG

delete

jcrewe:

While all of the bantering has provided information/opinions on both sides of the coin, I have to very respectfully say that it's not all that helpful to my original question :( I think my original post got forgotten in the bantering..lol! I am really just trying to figure out what I can do to rank higher. I'm very happy to hear that Google is now focusing on Product Titles, as most of my Product Titles state what the item is, so hopefully this will automatically make me rank better. I'll skip the URL renaming module as I was really only considering it if it would help with ranking, which it doesn't. With regards to meta tags, I added a photo in a previous comment above.....is this right or wrong how I have entered information? The keywords I have entered ARE relevant to what I sell, however, not all the keywords are listed elsewhere on my site or on a product page....will that make me rank lower?

Thanks :)

With all due respect I addressed your original post in my 1st response.. In particular you need to re-read the meta tag section of my post because it it ON POINT.. If you are focusing on the keyword meta tag.. You can stop.. NONE of the search engines do ANYTHING with this tag at all anymore..

The URL re-writing will simply SUPPORT your SEO efforts.. (having the page title matching your URL is not a BAD thing at all..) It's not a magic bullet.. It's simply an AID..

RodG:

Yes, and for the simple reason that ZenCart is one of the few CMS's that doesn't generate 'Friendly URL's' out of the box, so people try to circumvent this with 3rd party modules. I can only repeat once again, I (and most others, I assume) aren't anti Friendly URL's, we are anti having to use a 3rd party products that have been shown time and time again will cause problems. Whether these problems result from the software itself (which I admit is quite rare), or whether it is caused by 'User Error' isn't, in my opinion important. The end result is still the same, people come to the forum on an almost daily basis because something isn't working as a result of poorly written rewrite rules.

As there is little to no benefit to be gained from these rewrites I will forever insist that they simply aren't worth using. If the Friendly URL's were natively generated it becomes a whole new ball game, as these 'future problems' will no longer be an issue (Well, not until some smartass comes along with another 3rd part module that claims to do a better job than the natively generated Friendly URL's.
Right.. So let me be clear.. The ONLY modules I am speaking of is Ceon URI and Ultimate SEO.. ALl others are poorly written rubbish (yep I said it).

Now let me clear up something else that you are somewhat mistating. Other CMS's don't "generate 'Friendly URL's' out of the box". They ALL have an ADMIN enabled feature for pretty URLs.. Meaning that it's NOT ON by default.. To turn it on, one needs to turn it on and configure it. (configuration requirements/options vary for each CMS)

That said the reason 3rd party modules HAVE to exist for this feature is because this CMS out the box doesn't have a similar/same feature.. PERIOD.. So following your reasoning, NO ONE should install ANY 3rd party modules to add a feature not readily available out the box because it MIGHT mess up ones store??

You say that these modules "have been shown time and time again will cause problems". I say... So will ANY MODULE when you don't follow the instructions provided by the module author.. So will ANY MODULE when the module is poorly written.. So will ANY MODULE when there is an unintentional bug in the code.. There's nothing SPECIAL about these modules tha makes ANY of these conditions BETTER or WORSE..

But since you have asserted that these modules (and these modules alone apparently) "have been shown time and time again will cause problems" or "people come to the forum on an almost daily basis because something isn't working as a result of poorly written rewrite rules". Again, you can say all you like that "whether it is caused by 'User Error' isn't, in my opinion important".. However, the TRUTH of the matter is that it IS IMPORTANT.. Because 98% of the problems you say are reported on a "daily basis" with regards to these modules ARE due to user error.. You cannot summarily dismiss user errors as a factor in the issues reported.. In fact for ALL of the WELL WRITTEN modules that are in frequent use by shopowners, I will say that when installs go awry it's most often because of user error.. There is no verifiable PROOF that somehow there are MORE user issues related to these modules to the exclusion to all other modules.. In fact I think there are probably MANY MANY more posts on a "daily basis" asking how to upgrade you Zen Cart store with out having to follow the recommended upgrade steps..

As far as little to no benefit.. that is YOUR opinion.. There are SOLID business reasons to have human readable URLS and let's be real clear they have nothing to do with search engine rankings.. ANd let's be real.. Even Matt Cutts doesn't say human readable URLs are bad or even that you shouldn't do it.. So if you don't want to use them that is certainly your choice, but implying that human readable URLs cause some great harm is not entirely a true statement..

Like I said.. the fact that folks here are even still debating this sounds a lot like a bunch of old ladies complaining about "those kids and their sinful music"..

RodG:

This is true, but as a general rule, the benefits to be gained from most of these other modules far outweigh the risks of using them.Risks?? again.. not a compelling argument since installing Ceon URI and Ultimately SEO is no "riskier" than installing any other module Zen Cart module.. And using the term "risk" still really can't be subtantiated.. In fact these two modules of ALL the Zen Cart modules include code to minimize and install gone wrong by making sure (if you follow the installation instructions) shop owners don't do dumb stuff that WILL break the install.. Ultimate SEO's latest release is probably the most idiot proof module I've EVER installed as it has taken the fuss and worry out of the whole file merging process.. In fact I will say here that the latest version is so daggone slick that I recently upgraded a client, and thought I had done something wrong because I didn't see ANYTHING happen good or bad.. Didn't realize that this thing had just quietly upgraded my client's site with the click of ONE button..

RodG:

Bad choice of words.Nope right coice of words.. The issue is that you all in the "we hate these modules" camp are still STUCK on your dislike of these modules that you forget there are other reasons to use them..
RodG:

Can you give details of any other known benefits
The benefits you list are ENOUGH.. why do you need a GROCERY list of reasons?? How about PERSONAL PREFERENCE?? You seem to think that NO ONE should have a CHOICE in how their website is setup.. You just get what you get.. You CHOOSE not to use human readable URLs DON'T.. But if someone makes a different choice then a shopowner should be able to MAKE THAT CHOICE..

RodG:

And I'm constantly amused at Developers that are afraid to tell their clients when they are making bad choices. If my customers want to do something that I know isn't good for them I will do everything I possible can to educate them of the error of their ways.and therein lies the problem.. you still think it's a bad choice.. and quite honestly you can't REALLY prove it is.. In fact this is an opinion that you and others in this same camp hang on to for reasons that no longer exist.. So following this logic, ANYONE who has a Drupal, Joomla, WordPress, PrestaCart or OpenCart site and has turned on pretty URLs has made a "bad choice"?? Are you saing that other CMS's got it wrong here by even offering the option??

You think I'm afraid to tell my clients when they are making bad choices?? Seriously?? Do I strike you as the kind of girl who's afraid to tell ANYONE anything???? I'm not afraid to tell my clients ANYTHING.. Feel free to ask them.. Let me be clear, if any of my clients ever asked for pretty URLs because they think there is an SEO advantage (and only ONE to date did this) they will be SURE to tell you that I quickly redirect them. That said turning them on for other business reasons is NOT a bad idea..

RodG:

but if they can avoid these problems by NOT using something that offers so little benefit then I'm all for advising people of this fact.Except this is true of ANY MODULE.. Are ya gonna tell not to install ANY 3rd party modules or template.. Are ya gonna advise folks to stick with the Classic template and vanilla Zen Cart???

RodG:

This happens almost every time in a discussion about 'SEO'. There's too many experts and we are all right in what we say, even though our opinions may differ.Not trying to be RIGHT.. Just accurate.. I don't care one way or another what people decide.. Install Ceon URI or Ultimate SEO or don't.. What I dislike is that those who are against these apps still put forth WEAK and less than compelling arguments against these modules that aren't based in any REAL facts.. The fact of the matter is that installing one of these modules is a choice, and those who oppose these modules usually use very WEAK and less than compelling arguments for backing up their choice and put it out there as if it's gospel truth.. It's a simply CHOICE to install or not install one of these modules.. and if you CHOOSE not to install one of these modules, then just say that.. The other rhetoric that is usually cited as a "reason" or "proof" to not install one of these modules honestly just isn't backed up with any REAL facts.. No matter how much you try to dress up your assertions as proof, they are in fact not proof.. just really STRONG opinions..

RodG:

I am of the understanding that a future zencart version will have support for 'Friendly URL's' out of the box, and I suspect that when they do so it will be based on one of the existing 3rd party modules, which will be great for those people already using that particular module, but I suspect it will cause a bit of an update nightmare for those that have opted to use a different module.You think they don't know that already and would take that into consideration when implementing this feature???? Plus, I'm positive that if this get's implemented it won't be a ALWAYS ON feature which is following best practices established by other CMS's (or are you NOT aware that other CMS's don't turn this on by default???)

deleted

DivaVocals:

With all due respect I addressed your original post in my 1st response.. In particular you need to re-read the meta tag section of my post because it it ON POINT.. If you are focusing on the keyword meta tag.. You can stop.. NONE of the search engines do ANYTHING with this tag at all anymore..

The URL re-writing will simply SUPPORT your SEO efforts.. (having the page title matching your URL is not a BAD thing at all..) It's not a magic bullet.. It's simply an AID..

Back to the ORIGINAL topic..

RodG:

You are also guilty of this. I was only discussing the page titles. The metatags were not part of the discussion (other than the mutual agreement that these aren't used by SE's for ranking purposes).Not guilty of anything except providing a FULL CONTEXT to the conversation.. The OP stated that he wanted "some current information with regards to SEO". You mentioned page titles.. I included meta tags because the current Zen Cart meta tag process can lead to unintentionally BAD consequences.. Now you can try and limit the scope of what YOU are saying to just page titles, but if we're going to talk about this, we really need to look at the ENTIRE top section of the page code that search engines read.. They DO read the description meta tag, they DO NOT read the keyword meta tag and that IS part of search engine optimization.

RodG:

I'm sure that you are already aware of this, and since Google thought it worthy to mention the home page as a specific/special case, it is also worth noting that ZenCart has specific defines that are only used on the home page.I understand that.. Yes you can add those define for the home page.. Again I'm going to ask you to re-read what I originally posted.. Do you get that I am asserting that Zen Cart's native handling of meta tags ALL THE WAY AROUND is problematic?? Do you understand WHY I am making that assertion??

RodG:

So you agree with my findings that having the product name as the leading part of the page titles in the product related pages make a significant improvement to the SEO rankingsThe product name should be THE ONLY THING in the page title.. Again I think you are MISSING the point and you really need to re-read my previous post.. I am asserting that the way that the out the box native meta tags functionality of Zen Cart works (speaking ONLY of titles and descriptions) can lead to UN-intended DISASTROUS results!! I don't need to TEST what you are asserting because I am sure it's true because the NATIVE meta tag functionality uses OLD and FAULTY logic.. (Again the reason I quoted the Google stuff in that list preceded by the words that the current functionality BREAKS some rules.. please re-read what I said again..)

Some of the issues with the native meta tags functionality

• There is nothing to govern the length of the titles or meta descriptions - Current functionality allows these to be as long as you please.. Never mind that the search engines don't read 'em after a certain character count..
• Keywords by default should NOT be populated, and IF a shopowner INSISTS that they MUST include keywords, there needs to be limits on the character count
• The default keyword and description generation creates some pretty spammy looking results.. (Again go back to my other post.. I do provide examples on how the NATIVE functionality populates title, description, and keywords by default

RodG:

As for the 'description' section from your screenshots, I'm not too happy about this either. It doesn't read like a description to me. It looks a lot like a variation of your 'keywords'. I would be changing this so that it actually describes the content of the page.. For example
"We sell personalised chocolate bars for Birthdays, Weddings, Birthday announcements and more".

Your current 'description' has obviously been written for a Search Engine rather than people.

As I stated in my 1st reply "At the end of the day, the site needs to be written and designed for a good people experience, and never ever designed simply to get good SE rankings".

That's it. I've nothing more to add.

Cheers
RodG

sigh go back to my 1st post.. If you can stop worrying about evil SEO modules for JUST ONE MINUTE, and stop focusing in on what you think are misstatements or off topic remarks about page descriptions, or whatever.. You MIGHT see that I already pointed this out in my FIRST POST HERE.. I previously provided an explanation of how the title, keywords meta and description meta tags are REALLY constructed by Zen Cart.. this is not something the OP is doing.. this is what ZEN CART does out the box.. It WILL lead to poor results..

From this product: http://www.funwrappers.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=334

<title>Always & Forever Wedding Aisle Runner - $69.98 : Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories, Make your event You-nique with personalized favours</title> 
<meta name="keywords" content="Always & Forever Wedding Aisle Runner Invitations Chocolate Bars Wine Bottle Labels Promotional Items Water Bottle Labels Lipbalm/Chapstick Personalized Ribbon Unity Ceremony Aisle Runners Cake Toppers Napkins Fundraiser Notepads Wedding Notepads personalized party favours,custom wedding favors, custom wedding favours, wedding chocolate bars canada, wedding chocolate bar wrappers, event party favor,wedding party favour,labels for water,labels for wine,personalized favours,labels for wedding,water labels,aisle runners,water bottle labels,personalized wrappers,labels of wine, custom chocolate bar wrappers canada, wine bottle labels canada, chocolate bar wrappers" /> 
<meta name="description" content="Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories Always & Forever Wedding Aisle Runner - The classic “Always & Forever" inscription printed on this Aisle Runner will add a romantic touch to any ceremony aisle, whether in a church or outdoor setting. Comes with attached cord handle and double-sided adhesive tape along the leading edge to secure in place. Plan to sprinkle with rose or " />

http://www.funwrappers.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_11&products_id=613

<title>001 Little Prince Candy Bar Wrapper - Quantity Price Discount - $0.00 : Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories, Make your event You-nique with personalized favours</title> 
<meta name="keywords" content="001 Little Prince Candy Bar Wrapper - Quantity Price Discount Invitations Chocolate Bars Wine Bottle Labels Promotional Items Water Bottle Labels Lipbalm/Chapstick Personalized Ribbon Unity Ceremony Aisle Runners Cake Toppers Napkins Fundraiser Notepads Wedding Notepads personalized party favours,custom wedding favors, custom wedding favours, wedding chocolate bars canada, wedding chocolate bar wrappers, event party favor,wedding party favour,labels for water,labels for wine,personalized favours,labels for wedding,water labels,aisle runners,water bottle labels,personalized wrappers,labels of wine, custom chocolate bar wrappers canada, wine bottle labels canada, chocolate bar wrappers" /> 
<meta name="description" content="Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories 001 Little Prince Candy Bar Wrapper - Quantity Price Discount - A cute Little Prince design perfect for a baby shower or first birthday party. This unique candy bar wrapper can be personalized for free and is available either fully assembled with chocolate bar or as just the wrapper only. Silver foil, plastic sleeve and instructions included.   This design is created to " />

http://www.funwrappers.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_25&products_id=59

<title>LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm - Prices Starting at $1.49 - $2.49 : Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories, Make your event You-nique with personalized favours</title> 
<meta name="keywords" content="LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm - Prices Starting at $1.49 Invitations Chocolate Bars Wine Bottle Labels Promotional Items Water Bottle Labels Lipbalm/Chapstick Personalized Ribbon Unity Ceremony Aisle Runners Cake Toppers Napkins Fundraiser Notepads Wedding Notepads personalized party favours,custom wedding favors, custom wedding favours, wedding chocolate bars canada, wedding chocolate bar wrappers, event party favor,wedding party favour,labels for water,labels for wine,personalized favours,labels for wedding,water labels,aisle runners,water bottle labels,personalized wrappers,labels of wine, custom chocolate bar wrappers canada, wine bottle labels canada, chocolate bar wrappers" /> 
<meta name="description" content="Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm - Prices Starting at $1.49 - 100% all natural Beeswax personalized lipbalm. Comes in:   - Vanilla Bean - Mixture of random flavours.    **Save shipping costs and pick this item up at our Port Coquitlam location. Please see here for details.   " /> 

(can you hear what I am saying NOW????)

I encourage the OP to re-read my 1st post.. I encourage the OP to LOOK at the meta_tags.php file.. I encourage the OP to make the changes needed so that the native meta tags are NOT GENERATED..

Let me break down one product since lest this further devolve into more blah blah blah all SEO mods are bad talk, and my point (which speaks to the OPs original question) is going to be FURTHER missed..

The OP should look at this..

<title>LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm - Prices Starting at $1.49 - $2.49 : Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories, Make your event You-nique with personalized favours</title>

Tag Breakdown:
Product Title - LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm
Price - Prices Starting at $1.49 - $2.49
Business Name - Fun Wrappers
User Defined Text - (Is this in the meta_tags.php file?? This text appears on EVERY page) - Personalized Favours and Accessories
Tagline - Make your event You-nique with personalized favours

<meta name="keywords" content="LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm - Prices Starting at $1.49 Invitations Chocolate Bars Wine Bottle Labels Promotional Items Water Bottle Labels Lipbalm/Chapstick Personalized Ribbon Unity Ceremony Aisle Runners Cake Toppers Napkins Fundraiser Notepads Wedding Notepads personalized party favours,custom wedding favors, custom wedding favours, wedding chocolate bars canada, wedding chocolate bar wrappers, event party favor,wedding party favour,labels for water,labels for wine,personalized favours,labels for wedding,water labels,aisle runners,water bottle labels,personalized wrappers,labels of wine, custom chocolate bar wrappers canada, wine bottle labels canada, chocolate bar wrappers" /> 

***Tag Breakdown: ***
Product Title - LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm
Price - Prices Starting at $1.49 - $2.49
Product categories - Invitations Chocolate Bars Wine Bottle Labels Promotional Items Water Bottle Labels Lipbalm/Chapstick Personalized Ribbon Unity Ceremony Aisle Runners Cake Toppers Napkins Fundraiser Notepads Wedding Notepads
User Defined keywords - (My guess this is the custom keywords define from the meta_tags.php file. This text appears on EVERY page) - personalized party favours,custom wedding favors, custom wedding favours, wedding chocolate bars canada, wedding chocolate bar wrappers, event party favor,wedding party favour,labels for water,labels for wine,personalized favours,labels for wedding,water labels,aisle runners,water bottle labels,personalized wrappers,labels of wine, custom chocolate bar wrappers canada, wine bottle labels canada, chocolate bar wrappers

<meta name="description" content="Fun Wrappers Personalized Favours and Accessories LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm - Prices Starting at $1.49 - 100% all natural Beeswax personalized lipbalm. Comes in:   - Vanilla Bean - Mixture of random flavours.    **Save shipping costs and pick this item up at our Port Coquitlam location. Please see here for details.   " /> 

***Tag Breakdown: ***
Business Name - Fun Wrappers
User Defined Text - (Is this in the meta_tags.php file?? This text appears on EVERY page) - Personalized Favours and Accessories
Product Title - LB001 Blue Baby Feet lipbalm
Price - Prices Starting at $1.49 -
Extract from the product description - 100% all natural Beeswax personalized lipbalm. Comes in:   - Vanilla Bean - Mixture of random flavours.    **Save shipping costs and pick this item up at our Port Coquitlam location. Please see here for details.  

After reviewing this, the OP should go BACK to my FIRST post, and specifically go to the Google link I included which covers how to create effective titles and descriptions.. Compare what is said in that Google article to what is actually happening on your site.. Hopefully my original point will then be clear..

DivaVocals:

(can you hear what I am saying NOW????)

No, because quite frankly, I can't determine which parts of my original reply you are disagreeing with.

With the exception of the single sentence that read
URL renaming might have a very small effect when comparing two sites that would normally rank equally

... But even with that sentence you appear to be in agreement with the statement.

So, I'm now guessing that you decided to make a major issue out of my followup comment
but the long term issues are generally far more bothersome than any benefits you would possibly gain.

In other words, this entire debate revolves around the fact that you disagree agree about these long term issues. I respect your opinion on this matter, but the many people that come to these forums with problems caused by URL rewriting speaks for itself.

As for the rest of the 'debate', as stated, I still can't figure out exactly what it is I wrote that you are disagreeing with. As near as I can tell, you are saying the exact same things that I said (but added a lot more detail that I didn't think was really necessary to answer the OP's questions.

Cheers
RodG

RodG:

No, because quite frankly, I can't determine which parts of my original reply you are disagreeing with.

With the exception of the single sentence that read
URL renaming might have a very small effect when comparing two sites that would normally rank equally

... But even with that sentence you appear to be in agreement with the statement.

So, I'm now guessing that you decided to make a major issue out of my followup comment
but the long term issues are generally far more bothersome than any benefits you would possibly gain.

In other words, this entire debate revolves around the fact that you disagree agree about these long term issues. I respect your opinion on this matter, but the many people that come to these forums with problems caused by URL rewriting speaks for itself.

As for the rest of the 'debate', as stated, I still can't figure out exactly what it is I wrote that you are disagreeing with. As near as I can tell, you are saying the exact same things that I said (but added a lot more detail that I didn't think was really necessary to answer the OP's questions.

Cheers
RodG
"the many people that come to these forums with problems caused by URL rewriting speaks for itself"
Of course.. More unsubstantiated claims.. MANY.. okay.. shrugs

Rod.. I'm not debating anything anymore.. in fact I came here JUST to answer the OPs question.. YOU wanted to debate SEO mods.. YOU want to spend endless amounts of time picking apart every word in my posts and applying your interpretations to them.. Along the way you've mis-read or mis-stated some of the things I've said.. MY mistake was allowing this by responding to YOUR posts and in the process the BIG point I wanted to make to the OP with regards to how meta tags in Zen Cart work is getting LOST with this other non-sense.. I will not spend ANYMORE time on that.. if that's OKAY with you of course.. if not, then you can continue that part of this discussion alone..

RodG:

As near as I can tell, you are saying the exact same things that I said (but added a lot more detail that I didn't think was really necessary to answer the OP's questions.
Yeah.. I figured as much.. because as far as you are concerned the ONLY thing I've posted about is SEO mods.. so of course you are missing my point.. You are waaaaay too focused on arguing about that $h!t.. So I'm guessing that you are skipping/skimming my posts..

Go back to my posts. If you can for three seconds STOP focusing on SEO mods, and read EVERYTHING I've posted about** meta tags**, then you will understand what I was trying to point out to the OP in my first post in this thread.. will cross my fingers and HOPE that you will read it all without skipping, skimming, writing whole responses based on three words or a missed spelling, summarizing, etc....

DivaVocals:

Go back to my posts. If you can for three seconds STOP focusing on SEO mods, and read EVERYTHING I've posted about** meta tags, then you will understand what I was trying to point out to the OP in my first post in this thread.**

Ditto!

Cheers
RodG

RodG:

Ditto!

Cheers
RodG

right.. Well then.. I'm going to be moving on.. SMH