Why I'm Quitting Zen Cart

I want a 2-question account-creation step. I can't figure it out. So ...
I'm exploring other options. This isn't flame thread, just a sad realization that IMO the Internet has outgrown this platform, despite having the most amazing/helpful community. Here's why:

• (Before you take seriously the following points, be sure to read the entire thread, because it sets more context about why things are this way and what can be done about them. AND READ MY UPDATES (click here) about why I'm NOT quitting Zen Cart at this time.)
• And remember: Zen Cart IS entirely customizable. You are in complete control of your entire site. Unlike all the other vendor-hosted platforms.
• That said, I think Zen Cart does not keep up with modern demands. It's an old school OG platform that seems stubbornly stuck in the early days of eCommerce. But, yes it does work solidly.
• No modern site asks more than 3 or 4 questions to create an account. Email is more important than anything and account creation is basically another way of subscribing to an email list. Zencart asks 12+ questions just to create an account! :frusty: Nobody wants to give their address and phone info just to join a site. I tried and tried and tried to get around this, but alas there's no resolution for this old school way of thinking.
• Themes are stuck in the early 2000s and the modern looking themes available (ie: themeforest, etc) have wretched code that is impossible to modify nicely. :yuck:
• The admin area hasn't changed in a decade. It no longer makes sense in 2015. One example, why do you have to go to an entirely separate page to input metadata for a product? It should all be done on one page, so less energy is spent on listing products. Look at the wordpress admin and compare logic and overall usability. :no:
• Out of the box SEO is horrible.
• Everything feels like a bunch of hacking together to get things to feel like a 2015 shopping site. Stuff that comes out of the box in newer platforms is impossible to achieve in ZC.

Just a sad and frustrated Zen Cart user thread. It's been a long journey. Around 8 years. ZC has got me this far, and I'm thankful for that. But, a lot has changed in the world of eCommerce and how people shop online. I'm suddenly feeling like Zen Cart over-complicates things that should be easy, and doesn't provide the best user/shopper experience. I'll test another platform for a few weeks and see how it goes. Thank you everyone.

:smartalec:In my opinion, Ze

pricediscrimination:

... I'll test another platform for a few weeks and see how it goes.....

Good Luck with finding another open source platform which won't give you the .... (you know what). I tested many and ZC is still the easiest and most robust platform to work with. Wait until you have to conquer Magento... :yuck:

what are you testing?

pricediscrimination,

I'm exploring other options
You might read this users experiences
https://www.zen-cart.com/showthread.php?217822-I-semi-abandoned-ZenCart-found-nothing-better-%28whole-lot-worse%29-How-to-get-it-all

frank18:

Good Luck with finding another open source platform which won't give you the .... (you know what). I tested many and ZC is still the easiest and most robust platform to work with. Wait until you have to conquer Magento... :yuck:

You are 100% correct. Can't even compare to Magento. I'm just so frustrated looking at all the beautiful eCommerce sites out there. Sites that started within the last 2 years and sell one or two products are beautiful, modern, and designed to help grow the overall business. So many links that people drop in this forum are down, sometimes I wonder if it's because they just couldn't handle running a business, or because chose a free open source platform that takes up thousands of hours to modify and make look like a trustworthy, modern site.

I think that's a huge issue, trust. Zencart as an overall ecommerce solution to manage orders is awesome, but it's not made with design in mind. The front end takes far too much effort to convey trust and present products nicely.

Again, you are 100% correct. That's why I'm stumped.

johnniejetski:

what are you testing?

Frankly, no idea yet. I know that most will be paid options. But maybe worth it in the long run?

Will likely start with Wordpress. There are just so many amazing looking sites out there now and as a longtime ZC user it has me frustrated. In 2015, many options look great out of the box. Fonts, picture organization, banners, etc. Any ideas?

kobra:

pricediscrimination,

You might read this users experiences
https://www.zen-cart.com/showthread.php?217822-I-semi-abandoned-ZenCart-found-nothing-better-%28whole-lot-worse%29-How-to-get-it-all

I will read this thread. Thanks Kobra. And thanks everyone for not taking this post the wrong way, I Actually feel bad about the title and might ask for it to be changed. Maybe I just wanted to get enough attention that people chime in and persuade otherwise somehow lol.

pricediscrimination,
We all get frustrated for one reason or another at times - not to worry even if you quit

pricediscrimination:

make look like a trustworthy, modern site
I understand "modern" but can you explain what constitutes "trustworthy" looking

kobra:

pricediscrimination,
We all get frustrated for one reason or another at times - not to worry even if you quit

I understand "modern" but can you explain what constitutes "trustworthy" looking

I know it's vague, but modern looking sites give off a more trustworthy feeling. It's no longer about looking for the SSL certificate or and address posted somewhere. It's a new generation of online shoppers and they do not care about that stuff. There is something about a clean and organized design that says hey this is legit and you can trust it. Not to mention it's a lot easier to get people to register for your site if you're only asking for an email address and password, and not every personal detail. I've seen some ZC sites that I'd never want to even sign up for based on looks, and some other nicely designed sites that I say here take my money. In 2015, it's all about looking good on the front end, and being able to easy accomplish this with a straight-forward back-end.

Of course there are other elements outside of the scope of a platform: images, copy, overall products. But so much time needs to be spend configuring and hacking to make my ZC look how I want that it's hard to get any time for the important stuff. I'm hoping I'll find a platform that has good design and options built-in, so there's time to focus on what's important.

pricediscrimination:

• Zen Cart does not keep up with modern demands. It's an old school OG platform that seems stubbornly stuck in the early days of eCommerce.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'modern demands'. I know I looked at quite a few options two years ago when deciding whether to upgrade Zen cart, or switch to a new platform. I stuck with Zen cart, but put money into making changes. I looked at using WordPress with an ecommerce plugin, but none look like they could cope with a store the size of mine. Plus none had good back-office flow. It's not always about the front-end.

pricediscrimination:

• No modern site asks more than 3 or 4 questions to create an account. Email is more important than anything and account creation is basically another way of subscribing to an email list. Zencart asks 12+ questions just to create an account! :frusty: Nobody wants to give their address and phone info just to join a site. I tried and tried and tried to get around this, but alas there's no resolution for this old school way of thinking.

Zen Cart assumes it needs the extra billing and shipping information because eventually you'll need to ship something, so may as well get it at account setup than as at any other time. If you're not shipping then you can customise to reduce the stuff asked. You can also stop some fields via config settings. I recently turned of asking for the salutation and age.

pricediscrimination:

• Themes are stuck in the early 2000s and the modern looking themes available (ie: themeforest, etc) have wretched code that is impossible to modify nicely. :yuck:

I agree that the default themes are very dated. Plus most of the new responsive themes I've looked at so far are pretty clunky and some really slow sites up. However, I've recently seen some Zen Cart sites that look 'modern' and are responsive. But money was spent to buy them and customise them.

pricediscrimination:

• The admin area hasn't changed in a decade. It no longer makes sense in 2015. One example, why do you have to go to an entirely separate page to input metadata for a product? It should all be done on one page, so less energy is spent on listing products. Look at the wordpress admin and compare logic and overall usability. :no:

So fix it, or pay someone to do so, and contribute it back to the Zen Cart community. I'm currently paying a developer to make lots of changes to our Zen Cart site, and a lot of the changes are making their way back into the Zen Cart platform.

About three years ago I used WordPress to build a site with an ecommerce plugin (WooCommerce) to handle a small gift shop with about 20 items related to the business. I couldn't imagine using that solution to handle the 3000 items and back-office processing of my Zen Cart based online shop. And quite frankly, I often found having almost everything on the same page in WordPress frustrating. Sometimes you just want to do what you need to do and you don't need all of that extra clutter.

pricediscrimination:

• Out of the box SEO is horrible

Actually, it works quite well if you focus on the content and not on killer latest tricks. Sure it takes some work to find the extra plugins to get the right structured metadata into Zen cart, but it's easily done. And it would be nice if when inputting metadata in Zen Cart one had the sort of guidance the Yoast plugin provides for WordPress. But see, that's not standard WordPress. That functionality is achieved by a plugin. One day someone might do the same for Zen Cart.

pricediscrimination:

• Everything feels like a bunch of hacking together to get things to feel like a 2015 shopping site. Stuff that comes out of the box in newer platforms is impossible to achieve in ZC.

I wish you luck in finding that one platform, because I haven't seen anything that comes close yet. Nothing is impossible to achieve in Zen Cart. Because it's open source, you can do anything. And often the extras are available, they just cost you money. But that happens with other platforms as well. But with closed platforms, you don't have the choice of breaking out and doing your own thing the way you can with Zen Cart.

Best regards, Lloyd Borrett.

lloyd_borrett:

Zen Cart assumes it needs the extra billing and shipping information because eventually you'll need to ship something, so may as well get it at account setup than as at any other time. If you're not shipping then you can customise to reduce the stuff asked. You can also stop some fields via config settings. I recently turned of asking for the salutation and age.

This is a reasonable assumption, but a bit antiquated in terms of account creation expectations of today. Been trying to customize this with the help of other zenners and getting nowhere thanks to the unclear hacking away that needs to be done to code in several files, instead of a nicely designed on/off switch in the back-end.

lloyd_borrett:

I agree that the default themes are very dated. Plus most of the new responsive themes I've looked at so far are pretty clunky and some really slow sites up. However, I've recently seen some Zen Cart sites that look 'modern' and are responsive. But money was spent to buy them and customise them.

This, I'm realizing today, after my initial posting out of frustration, is what I think it all comes down to. Even the so-called premium pay-for themes just simply do not work. They always try to incorporate the same junky distractions like hover over an image and it zooms and tilts, instead of just creating a cleanly coded theme that works. IMo this is due to codebase of zencart, that didn't evolve very well with the idea of people creating themes and plugins. Developing a wordpress theme/plugin is a million times easier.

lloyd_borrett:

I often found having almost everything on the same page in WordPress frustrating. Sometimes you just want to do what you need to do and you don't need all of that extra clutter.

Off topic but at the top of your wordpress admin you have the option to shut off anything that you feel clutters the screen while posting.

lloyd_borrett:

Actually, it works quite well if you focus on the content and not on killer latest tricks. Sure it takes some work to find the extra plugins to get the right structured metadata into Zen cart, but it's easily done.

Being on top of the "latest tricks" is actually important for SEO. Clean URLs is also important but not an easy built-in solution.

lloyd_borrett:

I wish you luck in finding that one platform, because I haven't seen anything that comes close yet. Nothing is impossible to achieve in Zen Cart. Because it's open source, you can do anything. And often the extras are available, they just cost you money. But that happens with other platforms as well. But with closed platforms, you don't have the choice of breaking out and doing your own thing the way you can with Zen Cart.

That's a great point. But for aesthetics and ease of creating a better looking site, maybe a paid option will be better. IE: shopify type of service. Those sites look nice and seems like less hacking to do to achieve it.

Thank you very much for you thoughtful replies. It helps!

At some point I shared a similar outlook to you.

I did look at alternatives, like OpenCart, and Magento (good gosh - say bye bye to built-in basic customization) - and I looked at...more contemporary alternatives like Shopify.

I learned to appreciate Zen-Cart even more.

You grow with Zen-Cart. The templating system is ingenious, it separates core from design and pretty much gives you free reign over many things. Once you get a hang of the basic file structure - it's so navigable. The plugins you find here are a dream to be honest. Specific markers to outline what code is custom and what is standard - it allow you to pick and choose how you want to install a plugin. Whoever maintains the plugin submissions is really keeping an eye on things.

There is so much open to you - and I've learned too much along the way. I never saw myself coding php when I built my first Zen-Cart store, and now I've picked up some seriously crazy stuff along the way. Zen-Cart has taught me so much, about html, css, and php. And because it's so disastrously lacking in design, I've learned an ample amount of stuff on just basic jQuery. Give me the functionality, and I'll handle the design myself.

There are some frustrating things, like you pointed out - these days customers don't want to fill in an entire form of information to become a member. I agree with you there.

As for the admin layout...I don't care what it looks like, my customers aren't seeing it, so as long as it functions, I'm happy.

I'm still looking for that perfect accounting software package I can integrate with Zen-Cart - still no luck. I find that the problem is quite often that the accounting packages are lacking proper APIs or just plain closed up and restricted. This is arguable.

All in all - I'm hoping Zen-Cart 1.6 addresses the smaller issues - like the account creation process - and other than that - It's easiest cart open to free reign.

The one thing that scares me is, when DrByte and Kobra and the cool guy with the forum nick that begins with "mc" and Linda and all of the ninjas...how long are they going to be around for...and what happens when...they've grown tired...

On one of the above "topics" in pricediscrimination's "defense" he did reach out to get assistance on the login credentials side of things... There were some initial miscommunications, and sure if I at the time had had better computer access, I might have been able to give much more direct guidance rather than simply talk about it...

yaseent:

At some point I shared a similar outlook to you.
I did look at alternatives, like OpenCart, and Magento (good gosh - say bye bye to built-in basic customization) - and I looked at...more contemporary alternatives like Shopify.

How did you feel about Shopify?

yaseent:

You grow with Zen-Cart. The templating system is ingenious, it separates core from design and pretty much gives you free reign over many things. Once you get a hang of the basic file structure - it's so navigable. The plugins you find here are a dream to be honest. Specific markers to outline what code is custom and what is standard - it allow you to pick and choose how you want to install a plugin. Whoever maintains the plugin submissions is really keeping an eye on things.

Maybe you never used Wordpress :P but THAT is a dream. One click install, done. Not hacking away at code because of a templating system that is stuck in web 1.0. Don't want the plugin anymore? You're screwed if you didn't take notes or save the original files to know what to remove from the code.

yaseent:

There is so much open to you - and I've learned too much along the way. I never saw myself coding php when I built my first Zen-Cart store, and now I've picked up some seriously crazy stuff along the way. Zen-Cart has taught me so much, about html, css, and php. And because it's so disastrously lacking in design, I've learned an ample amount of stuff on just basic jQuery. Give me the functionality, and I'll handle the design myself.

You are so right about this. Without ZC I wouldn't have learned any PHP or CSS, etc. For that, I am very thankful.

yaseent:

There are some frustrating things, like you pointed out - these days customers don't want to fill in an entire form of information to become a member. I agree with you there.

Just a product of old school thought and design without new school evolution.

yaseent:

As for the admin layout...I don't care what it looks like, my customers aren't seeing it, so as long as it functions, I'm happy.

I case about this a lot, because poor admin layout means wasted time. It's also discouraging for developers to create cool plugins and themes for the community. Amazingly some newer theme makers are finding way to create decent enough admin panels to make theme changes, but it still lacks so much.

yaseent:

I'm still looking for that perfect accounting software package I can integrate with Zen-Cart - still no luck. I find that the problem is quite often that the accounting packages are lacking proper APIs or just plain closed up and restricted. This is arguable.

Good luck! Accounting software it the worst. Quickbooks is a nightmare! It's not even easy to find a half-decent inventory management solution. crying

yaseent:

All in all - I'm hoping Zen-Cart 1.6 addresses the smaller issues - like the account creation process - and other than that - It's easiest cart open to free reign.

Hope so, too. Thanks for reminding me of some positives of using ZC.

yaseent:

The one thing that scares me is, when DrByte and Kobra and the cool guy with the forum nick that begins with "mc" and Linda and all of the ninjas...how long are they going to be around for...and what happens when...they've grown tired...

That is a scary thought! Every name you listed here has helped tremendously over the years. They are all names that mean a lot and create such a sigh of relief when they take time to chime in on posts. So very thankful for them and other Zenners that post here!!!

mc12345678:

On one of the above "topics" in pricediscrimination's "defense" he did reach out to get assistance on the login credentials side of things... There were some initial miscommunications, and sure if I at the time had had better computer access, I might have been able to give much more direct guidance rather than simply talk about it...

Thank you very much for remembering that, and for trying your best to help. This particular issue is a source of my intense frustration because it really shouldn't be THAT difficult to create a simple create account page that 99% of all other ecommerce sites have, and for good reason. You're always very helpful, thanks.

pricediscrimination:

How did you feel about Shopify?

Impressive basic features. But when you need modules to solve even some simple stuff...you must pay a developer up to $15 per month...and if the module requires the use of database entries, the third-party developer is hosting this database for you...this is scary.

pricediscrimination:

Maybe you never used Wordpress :P but THAT is a dream. One click install, done. Not hacking away at code because of a templating system that is stuck in web 1.0. Don't want the plugin anymore? You're screwed if you didn't take notes or save the original files to know what to remove from the code.

Not really..I assume you're talking about Woocommerce? I've taken one look at a website a friend cooked up...I found it rather bloated-looking.

pricediscrimination:

Good luck! Accounting software it the worst. Quickbooks is a nightmare! It's not even easy to find a half-decent inventory management solution. crying

Stupid accounting. I've been watching AccountEdge closely, by Acclivity. I'm going to be implementing that when I get a chance...there is some room for importing orders and so on...it's quite nifty, with a rather interesting mobile app as well. iOS only for now, but the desktop software is for Mac and PC - and it syncs some stuff back and forth to the mobile app.

pricediscrimination:

Hope so, too. Thanks for reminding me of some positives of using ZC.

:)

At the risk of repeating myself....the only really important thing ZC is missing is attribute inventory control IMHO. Everything else is frills or eye candy.
Yes it's a pain that its so ugly and you have to spend ages customising it yourself, or pay someone to customise it without following the template rules/not commenting all code changes and so you enter upgrade hell.

But if it looked too good many ZC sites would look the same like many lazy Prestashop sites.
I would rather they fix the above function hole (and the rounding errors) than make it look pretty, but I know that is not possible until ZC2.0.

If I was starting again I would invest my time in checking out Spree Commerce.

For invoicing, the most likely candidates I have come across for those with a Zen Cart skill set (php, mysql) and who want to see some code they might understand:
for USA-centric I would look at Phreebooks,
EU-centric I would look at Dolibarr, which I will be implementing one day.

Otherwise you are looking at Magento + Open ERP/oDoo with learning curves so steep you need ropes and crampons.

torvista:

At the risk of repeating myself....the only really important thing ZC is missing is attribute inventory control IMHO. Everything else is frills or eye candy.
Yes it's a pain that its so ugly and you have to spend ages customising it yourself, or pay someone to customise it without following the template rules/not commenting all code changes and so you enter upgrade hell.

But if it looked too good many ZC sites would look the same like many lazy Prestashop sites.
I would rather they fix the above function hole (and the rounding errors) than make it look pretty, but I know that is not possible until ZC2.0.

If I was starting again I would invest my time in checking out Spree Commerce.

For invoicing, the most likely candidates I have come across for those with a Zen Cart skill set (php, mysql) and who want to see some code they might understand:
for USA-centric I would look at Phreebooks,
EU-centric I would look at Dolibarr, which I will be implementing one day.

Otherwise you are looking at Magento + Open ERP/oDoo with learning curves so steep you need ropes and crampons.

Valuable insight. Thank you for sharing. Will also check out Spree.

In my almost 62 years of playing on this planet I have learned one important thing: You can dress the most evil person in the most beautiful and classy looking clothes and create a wonderful first impression but by doing so you won't take the evil and nastiness out of that person. But it's easy to take the most beautiful person with the biggest heart and warmest nature to the best dress shop and make them look like the perfect lady or gent.

What's under the hood is what counts. And that's what ZC is all about!

Not many of us like and use the basic classic template that comes with a fresh install, the devs have acknowledged that as well... and it is being addressed. Don't judge a book by it's cover! There are lots of great template designers around so why not calling into their dress shop and getting an outfit (template) that suits you? Pretty simple, isn't it?

As for Shopify, I recently did a cost comparison between that platform and ZC. Yes, you guessed it: ZC comes up the winner by a country mile. Let alone that you retain full control over the lot, design, DB, security etc etc.

frank18:

In my almost 62 years of playing on this planet I have learned one important thing: You can dress the most evil person in the most beautiful and classy looking clothes and create a wonderful first impression but by doing so you won't take the evil and nastiness out of that person. But it's easy to take the most beautiful person with the biggest heart and warmest nature to the best dress shop and make them look like the perfect lady or gent. What's under the hood is what counts. And that's what ZC is all about!

Haha well said.

frank18:

Not many of us like and use the basic classic template that comes with a fresh install, the devs have acknowledged that as well... and it is being addressed. Don't judge a book by it's cover! There are lots of great template designers around so why not calling into their dress shop and getting an outfit (template) that suits you? Pretty simple, isn't it?

With all respect to anyone who was brave enough to develop a template/theme for ZC, they almost all look the same, or are outdated, or built around lousy code that makes no sense. And while pay-for premium sites like Themeforest have some of the best Wordpress theme available, it's sad sad sad that there are 15 or less ZC themes there and mostly all built like :censored:

frank18:

Let alone that you retain full control over the lot, design, DB, security etc etc.

Full control is a very good point to consider. Thank you.