Paypal Express Tax on Shipping

[DrByte]

if my PayPal Express account were configured to calculate tax on shipping

Um, there's no such option.

Does PayPal Express Checkout ever show the proper shipping tax on any of the PP pages or emails for other ZC users, or am I back to thinking it's just my site with the issue?

Why is shipping tax such a sensitive issue?
Zen Cart passes the *total* shipping amount, including tax, as the Shipping cost. Why do you want to break out the tax to show on the PayPal side? Is there some particular specific benefit or legal requirement you've got that nobody else has?

I think you're overthinking something here.

[DBB1]

Um, there's no such option.

It's under Profiles|Sales Tax|Apply rate to shipping amount=Y/N...

Why is shipping tax such a sensitive issue?

This should be obvious; why would I show my customer one order summary on one page, and a different summary on another?

While it's true that I'm still collecting the full order tax and shipping tax as required by the state, it comes down to a couple of things, the first being to improve customer experience and conversion rates. Bear in mind, PPEC is my only payment method at the moment, so my goal is to provide as seamless a move as possible over to the PPEC pages and back.

As it stands, the customer selects his shipping amount, and the ZC order summary shows things perfectly, yet by the time they get to the PPEC payment, they see the tax on the item, while the shipping rate appears to have changed (I won't even get into the back and forth that occurs between ZC and PPEC before you're even able to select shipping rates). They may be able to figure out why shipping changed - they may not. As a frequent online consumer myself, things like this are off-putting, and tends to reflect on the business. I've seen posts by others stating that they drop customers during the PPEC process, so this could one reason why.

The second thing is that I had planned on using some of the PPEC business financial reports to help ease tax reporting to the state, but those reports aren't going to accurately reflect sales tax collected.

I still haven't determined from all the posts whether I've got an issue or if this is standard behavior when ZC is coupled with PPEC. Is there a sticky or FAQ somewhere that I've overlooked that details order sequence, etc. with the use of PPEC?

[DrByte]

It's under Profiles|Sales Tax|Apply rate to shipping amount=Y/N...

That's only used if you're using Website Payments Standard, not Express Checkout.

This should be obvious; why would I show my customer one order summary on one page, and a different summary on another?

I've been asking PayPal that same question for 3 years.
Maybe you can ask them too, since it's *their* system that's causing the need.

Or, maybe you can tell me how you think it should work: PayPal allows the following to be submitted:

- Line item name/desc
- Line item price
- Line item tax amount
- Line item quantity

- price * qty = price for that line
- tax * qty = tax for that line
- All line items are then subtotaled, prices and taxes separately

- Shipping is one line: total shipping amount

The subtotal of all line items plus the subtotal of all line item taxes, plus the shipping cost are added together for the final total.

It's pretty simple math really. Something you'd do yourself the same way, right?

Except for one thing: Shipping Tax.

Tell me where you think that should be stuffed in there to make it work, keeping in mind that you can't submit a line item on its own with a 0 price and a non-zero tax amount (ie: to fake the shipping tax into another product line).


Awaiting your solution ...


Keep in mind: is your goal to collect payments, or is it to prepare reports for your tax man? Remember, Zen Cart has all that tax data available for you. You can get all the details from within your store. And, those details cover payments from *all* your payment methods, not just PayPal. Why are you putting all your eggs into PayPal's reports?

Anyway, looking forward to your solution to the dilemma.

[DBB1]

That's only used if you're using Website Payments Standard, not Express Checkout.

I've only signed up for the Express Checkout. Was on the phone with PayPal MTS group for the last couple of evenings, and they've never differentiated a particular service this was tied to. To your point, having this option checked on their side never added the 8.25% rate to the shipping rate ZC passes over anyway, so maybe it only works depending on the service used...

I've been asking PayPal that same question for 3 years. Maybe you can ask them too, since it's *their* system that's causing the need.

As mentioned, spent time spent on the phone with MTS, and no further along than when I started. Most of the phone time racked up was hold time... I feel your pain.

So are you're saying PayPal requires you pass over tax for each line item, instead of letting you pass over tax as calculated on the order sub-total? I suppose this would make sense if one had some items that were taxable, and some not.

In my case, all are taxable, so it would be better to add the shipping tax back into the order's total tax, and leave shipping alone. But if PPEC only allows tax to be sent over at the item level, and then adds them together to determine the order's total tax, then it's moot.

I've been doing a lot of testing and playing with option settings, and keeping fairly detailed records with screen shots... Here's a new twist I've stumbled on that has changed my situation somewhat... In the ZC PayPal setup, I changed the setting from "Final Sale" to "Auth Only" (which technically follows Visa/Mastercard rules - you're not supposed to capture funds until you ship).

By doing so, I no longer get the PPEC screen that details the items, tax, and (shipping + ship tax) - so the PPEC screen that I didn't like - and that would give a customer whiplash - is no longer there.

What I have now when the customer selects the PPEC button from the Zen Cart Payment Option page, is:

1. taken to PPEC Name/Address/CC entry screen. After entries are made, you're...
2. taken to PPEC Review screen (lists items only, no tax or shipping is detailed whatsoever). Continuing...
3. returns you to Zen Cart's shipping selection page. Continuing...
4. takes you to Zen Cart's "Step 2 of 3 - Payment Information" page. Continuing...
5. takes you to Zen Cart's "Step 3 of 3 - Order Confirmation" page (this is a bit of a misnomer - it's more of a full order review, including shipping and billing addresses). Finally, continuing...
6. takes you to Zen Cart's "Thank you for your order" page (what I would call an order confirmation)

So, Step 2 above is really the only PPEC screen that doesn't make sense from an order flow standpoint, but I suppose there's no way to get rid of it. Also, with the settings I currently have, the "Skip Payment Page" in the Zen Cart PayPal configuration does not seem to change the order flow any, regardless of how I have it set.

Some of the commercial web companies I've contracted at work had a customer who used PPEC as a payment option, but I recall it being a more seamless integration. That site is no longer available, so I can't research it any longer. I do have a PayPal account rep through work that I may end up contacting, as I don't think I'm going to get anywhere with MTS.

...is your goal to collect payments, or is it to prepare reports for your tax man?

Hopefully, I can keep a customer engaged through the checkout process to get a payment, otherwise I won't need the report anyway...

In Zen Cart I can drill into each order to get the order details, but I've searched but haven't found a financial reporting area where I could see total revenue with tax and shipping broken out at the store level, which is why I thought I'd use the PayPal financials. I guess I can bolt on Quickbooks, or maybe search the contribution section.

Thanks,
-DBB1

[DrByte]

What I have now when the customer selects the PPEC button from the Zen Cart Payment Option page, is:

1. taken to PPEC Name/Address/CC entry screen. After entries are made, you're...
2. taken to PPEC Review screen (lists items only, no tax or shipping is detailed whatsoever). Continuing...
3. returns you to Zen Cart's shipping selection page. Continuing...
4. takes you to Zen Cart's "Step 2 of 3 - Payment Information" page. Continuing...
5. takes you to Zen Cart's "Step 3 of 3 - Order Confirmation" page (this is a bit of a misnomer - it's more of a full order review, including shipping and billing addresses). Finally, continuing...
6. takes you to Zen Cart's "Thank you for your order" page (what I would call an order confirmation)

So, Step 2 above is really the only PPEC screen that doesn't make sense from an order flow standpoint, but I suppose there's no way to get rid of it.

The steps you've enumerated happen only if the customer clicks the "Express Checkout" shortcut button on the Shopping Cart page.
If the customer skips that button and uses the normal checkout button and selectes PayPal from the payment options page (or if you turn that button off so they *must* wait until the payment options page), then steps 1 & 2 above will happen between your steps 5 & 6 above.

[DBB1]

The steps you've enumerated happen only if the customer clicks the "Express Checkout" shortcut button on the Shopping Cart page.
If the customer skips that button and uses the normal checkout button and selectes PayPal from the payment options page (or if you turn that button off so they *must* wait until the payment options page), then steps 1 & 2 above will happen between your steps 5 & 6 above.

Maybe it's the other way around? The steps I outlined in the last post are when the Express Checkout button is selected from the Payment Options page, not from the cart page.

I removed the Express Checkout button on the cart page via CSS some time ago, so that they can only select "Checkout" if they want to proceed. "Checkout" then takes them to the Payments Options page.

I also tried setting the ZC PayPal config "Express Checkout Shortcut Button = OFF," but it turned off the PPEC button on the Payment Options page.

I'd like to try putting Steps 1 and 2 between 5 and 6, as it might make for a more orderly checkout flow, but as mentioned, selecting the Express Checkout button from the Payment Option page flows as I originally posted. Maybe I should un-hide the button from the cart page, and try it from there.

-DBB1

[DrByte]

You've got something seriously wrong if it's working as you describe, since it was architected the way I described it.

[DBB1]

You've got something seriously wrong if it's working as you describe, since it was architected the way I described it.

Don't know how. Other than my template and add-ons I mentioned, I've only applied the ZC upgrades individually since about 1.3.9f.

What file(s) dictate this?

[DBB1]

I followed the ZC upgrade instructions, which stated that payments modules did not need to be reinstalled following the upgrades.

Is this something you think I should do, regardless?

Thanks again,
-DBB1

[DrByte]

I can't see it making any difference.

The only way the system could be operating as backwards as you claim it to be is if you've made serious alterations to the code ... in which case I can't help you here.