Templates Obsolete With 2.0??

Am I really reading the announcement for 2.0 correctly? Are you really going to make all of the templates for 1.3.8a incompatible with 2.0?

This is an incredible disappointment. We just finished spending over $5,000 on template design and implementation six months ago, and now you are saying we have to do it all over again??

Over a year ago I started the process of moving away from our custom written cart software in favor of something more stable and mainstream. After evaluating all of the various carts available, I chose Zen Cart as it appeared to be one the best supported open source packages available. Never did I expect that with the very first major release of the software after implementing it on our websites that I would be faced with yet ANOTHER FRIKEN' REWRITE!

I am not a programmer or systems person. I am a business person - trying to run a business. And quite frankly I am getting pretty darned tired of trying to keep up with these constant changes. I can understand the need for security upgrades and even source code refreshes and updates, but I thought the whole point of a template driven system was to separate the underlying code from the presentation and content so that I am not constantly re-writing presentation level stuff?

At least that's the way other systems work. On my blogs I am using templates that are over four years old with the latest version of WordPress. Why can they create updates that don't break templates, but Zen Cart can't?

• Just an extremely frustrated customer (and yes I do donate a month fee to Zen Cart), who will probably become an extremely frustrated X customer of Zen Cart in the next year.

Nuts

You will partly need to recode template, not redesign. It will probably costs you a few hundred bucks.

That said, we would love to keep the tpl unchanged, but zencart came from osc with some nasty legacy code and to improve performance we need some important changes in the core.

Also, with the new system, tpl coding will be much more easier it seems, which will save you money in the long run.

And again, the stable release of 2.0 is not likely to come within months, and you are not forced to upgrade when you are not ready yet.

warrisr:

Am I really reading the announcement for 2.0 correctly? Are you really going to make all of the templates for 1.3.8a incompatible with 2.0?

This is an incredible disappointment. We just finished spending over $5,000 on template design and implementation six months ago, and now you are saying we have to do it all over again??

In a word? Eventually. Note that the first release in a new series of software is not going to be recommended for production use. As long as your 1.3+ shop is stable and functioning there is no reason to rebuild immediately.

warrisr:

Over a year ago I started the process of moving away from our custom written cart software in favor of something more stable and mainstream. After evaluating all of the various carts available, I chose Zen Cart as it appeared to be one the best supported open source packages available. Never did I expect that with the very first major release of the software after implementing it on our websites that I would be faced with yet ANOTHER FRIKEN' REWRITE!

The Zen Cart 2.0 re-write moves the code from old-style procedural code to more modern Object Oriented php and makes the forward progress much easier in the long run as we have to keep up with new versions of PHP and MYSQL.

warrisr:

I am not a programmer or systems person. I am a business person - trying to run a business. And quite frankly I am getting pretty darned tired of trying to keep up with these constant changes. I can understand the need for security upgrades and even source code refreshes and updates, but I thought the whole point of a template driven system was to separate the underlying code from the presentation and content so that I am not constantly re-writing presentation level stuff?

This change to the templates will make upgrading in the future much easier. We have moved all of the remaining procedural code and MYSQL queries out of the templates. The 1.3+ templates did not separate the presentation from the content and the 2.0 templates do.

warrisr:

At least that's the way other systems work. On my blogs I am using templates that are over four years old with the latest version of WordPress. Why can they create updates that don't break templates, but Zen Cart can't?

You have to remember that we started life as a fork of another shopping cart and we are still in the process of cleaning up and correcting the problems with it.

warrisr:

• Just an extremely frustrated customer (and yes I do donate a month fee to Zen Cart), who will probably become an extremely frustrated X customer of Zen Cart in the next year.

Nuts

We feel your pain, honestly! But the moves that are being made in the upcoming Zen Cart 2.0 are going to be worth it in the end.

warrisr:

$5,000 on template design and implementation six months agoHey - can you please tell me how the designer of your templates managed to get that much money off you ?
As you say - with a template driven system - once you know how it works - it should be a relatively trivial matter to "design & implement" a new template.
Sounds to me like you have paid your "template creator" for the "learning how" - as well as the "implementation"
Just wish I could get someone to pay me for months of learning how - instead - I have to absorb that part of the time I spend - in the hope it will benefit me in the future.
The over-riding thought should be - that this is an open source cart - don't be surprised if things change - but you really do not have to "upgrade" anyway - if you are happy with what you have - leave it in place.
If ever I start to make ANY money at all - I will be happy to pay the developers of zen cart some money - for what must be the best shopping cart software at the price ? (I've tried a few - even the paid ones don't come close)

Vinyl Signs:

Hey - can you please tell me how the designer of your templates managed to get that much money off you ?
As you say - with a template driven system - once you know how it works - it should be a relatively trivial matter to "design & implement" a new template.
Sounds to me like you have paid your "template creator" for the "learning how" - as well as the "implementation"Firstly to make clear that my agency wasn't the one that did warrisr's site. However, $5,000 is not at all unreasonable for site with professionally produced graphics and some customization. We (Kuroi Web Design) have certainly done sites for less, but also for several times this amount where the design input and level of customisation warranted it - and hopefully you wouldn't accuse us of having to learn on the job :wink:.

Thank you very much for your replies and comments.

I may of sound off in haste this morning. It's just that I was not expecting to have to re-work presentation level templates ever again unless I was going to change the actual design. So the announcement that 1.3 templates will not work with 2.0 code took me by surprise.

I have asked our developer to comment on what it is going to take to upgrade our sites to 2.0. I am assuming he will have access to the code that is in development.

As for standing pat and not upgrading to 2.0 right away. In my experience that is probably not a good strategy. The first time that we fail a PCI security scan because of a problem with Zen Cart 1.3.8a code, we will be required to patch the problem or update to the latest version of the software.

When that happens (and it will happen), there may or may not be a security patch available for 1.3.8a, but if there is not, the PCI security company will simply take tell us to upgrade to the latest version of Zen Cart. And considering that upgrading our sites may take weeks if not months - I prefer not to be in a position where we have to make that change in a big hurry in order to regain PCI compliancy.

PCI is pretty much calling the shots in ecommerce these days. If we fail a PCI compliancy scan, we must resolve the problem quickly and to the satisfaction of the PCI security scanning service - or face fines or even termination of service by our credit card processor; which would essentially put us out of business. So I prefer not to take any chances and try to be as pro-active as possible. Which means I have to start planning our upgrade strategy now.

I truly do hope that 2.0 will cleanly separate the content and presentation from the code once and for all.

As for spending $5k+ on customization, we operate two websites with over 10,000 product skus that generate seven figure annual revenues. These are large, sprawling sites with a lot of content, so spending $5k is not unreasonable at all.

kuroi:

Firstly to make clear that my agency wasn't the one that did warrisr's site.My comments were not aimed at anyone - don't know who did the site - none of my business...:smile:
> However, $5,000 is not at all unreasonable for site with professionally produced graphics and some customization.Nice if you can get it...:smile: - living in the "sticks" does tend to limit what you can expect to get - whatever your level of expertise (still trying to get some myself :D)
> We (Kuroi Web Design) have certainly done sites for less, but also for several times this amount where the design input and level of customisation warranted itQuite understand that - what I was getting at - was the fact that zencart is effectively free - so your only costs are in just how far you want to go (and pay for) in customising it - which would hold true even for any other cart - paid for included ? - and an upgrade to V2 is not mandatory...
> hopefully you wouldn't accuse us of having to learn on the job :wink:.No - you would come in to the category of recommended and very capable...:D
Please don't take offence - none was intended...:smile: - "learning on the job" is what I do best...:cool: even though I don't get paid....

I have asked our developer to comment on what it is going to take to upgrade our sites to 2.0. I am assuming he will have access to the code that is in development.

Sorry, he will not. The code has not been released and is not available publicly. When the initial release is made it will be BETA.

@Vinyl Signs

Fear not. At no time did I think you were having a pop at me. I just wanted to make the point (not very well it seems :wink:) that while Zen Cart is great for those building stores as a hobby or on a low budget, it is also a great platform for professionals building fully-featured, high volume stores for larger and often highly profitable businesses, when the budget spent by warrisr and often much more, is very common.

@warrisr

It's unfortunate that you have arrived on the scene so close to a generational shift in Zen Cart. If you'd arrived 2-3 years ago or in 6 months time, the issue would simply not have arisen. Credit to you for having the good grace to re-balance your comment.

Given your description of your sites, I'm sure that you would want to plan the upgrade anyway. The beta period that everybody else hopes will be short, will probably work in your favor, as I'm sure the PCI compliance auditors wouldn't want you running beta software.

@warrisr
Popping in here:

As normally there are only a few tpl's edited to any major extent, once the Beta comes available, one might find it relatively simple to divorce your current tpl's that might contain procedural stuff from the presentation(template look) stuff....
Just as the move from ZenCart 1.2.x to the current 1.3.x required some template adjustments, I suspect that the 2.x series will only require adjustment and not a full fledged re-write.

I have not seen the code yet so my comments are 100% conjecture but based upon the past and the current construction.

kuroi:

@Vinyl Signs Fear not.:cool: That's a relief...:smile:> I just wanted to make the point (not very well it seems :wink:) that while Zen Cart is great for those building stores as a hobby or on a low budget, it is also a great platform for professionals building fully-featured, high volume stores for larger and often highly profitable businesses, when the budget spent by warrisr and often much more, is very common.I think that is the great strength of zen - as you say - it is a great starting point capable of handling low budget - and high end (not that I see any :D)

You said that you have just finished work on the site about 6 months ago.
Judging by the conversations/ threads I think it'll be around 6 months before ZC2 is a solid, stable release perfectly suited for live projects.

My clients and I always do design/ development reviews around 6 - 9 months.
Therefore when v2 is ready you should be considering an overhaul anyway, in my opinion.

bigbadboy:

My clients and I always do design/ development reviews around 6 - 9 months.
Therefore when v2 is ready you should be considering an overhaul anyway, in my opinion.
I believe that the OP's point was covered in his original post and one that bears consideration...
warrisr:

I thought the whole point of a template driven system was to separate the underlying code from the presentation and content so that I am not constantly re-writing presentation level stuff?
At least that's the way other systems work. On my blogs I am using templates that are over four years old with the latest version of WordPress.

I recall a few howls of anguish when ZC moved up from 1.2 to 1.3 .

When I have preliminary meetings with (potential) clients, part of my pitch involves the need to budget for software upgrades in the future (or at least understand that upgrades will cost money).

Nobody like to be told that MORE money may be necessary, but if people are aware that upgrades come along, and will involve some costs, then they are usually more resigned to that eventuality.

I explain that upgrades are essential - mostly for security and performance efficiency (vital in the world of e-commerce), but that new software often introduces additional features that can have a positive benefit to a web shop.

Also, OPERATING software (eg: php, mySQL) advances too, so FUNCTIONAL software has to keep pace.

Software upgrades are a fact of life in the computer business (how do you think Bill Gates got rich(er) ?)

Templates are one thing, I figured the template system out but I guess I could deal with that if I had to. What really irks me and really kind of stuns me is the voiding of the mods and custom add-ons. This, to me, seems like the biggest thing since some developers have given up on well-enough and some risky-at-best projects. Some mods are special finds and some developers simply won't want to rework all their projects. Some of these mods have become really necessary e.g. customers in wishlist or newsletter subscribers and database tables that have already been created and populated. Is this really good for business? I don't see the need or major benefit for such massive changes but hopefully these issues will be resolved.

Its not that bad I guess, everyone will have to find their way around it and it does include the much requested sku system, so..

Zen Cart has a ton of great features, but its architecture is out of data and looks increasingly clunky and difficult to work with compared the best of breed products in other categories of open source software.

This makes it less and less attractive to the developers who produce and maintain the mods that you value, and makes their supply and support increasingly likely to dry up.

Zen Cart 2.0, when it appears one day, will address that directly, and yes, there will be a wobble period while developers come up to speed with the changes and new (and better) ways of doing things, but hopefully the end result will be more and better mods, rather than a long slow death and waking up at your desk one morning to discover that everybody else has left the building.

Oh and as an aside, both templates and modules are much more than the physical code - they're also the thinking that goes into how they look and work, and that's not lost, even during a major upgrade - it just means that somebody needs to adjust the implementation of those ideas a little.