Sites selling "Installation Services"...

It's come to my attention (via spam from them no less) that a site is selling "installation services" for some of the mods I've written and uploaded here. I'm not entirely sure that I am happy with this; I know someone else around here has said that this is "part of the Zencart ecosystem" but I find it a little parasitical. My issues are:

1. There appears to be no recompense to the original authors; Has any mod author ever got even a donation from one of these sites?
2. There appears to be no guarantee that the Installation Service is legit- What is to stop them from just refering their customer back to the support forums? Or worse- themselves tying up mod authors to resolve issues; they taking the money and nothing going back to the author (as per point 1).
3. None of these service sites have approached me for permission for my work to be used in this way. Did I give away this right by including the GPL?
   I am now thinking of adding further conditions to the T&C's stating that no third party is allowed to charge any fee for installation, support or any other action with regard to the mod unless the third party has obtained a licence to do so from myself. Furthermore, if a user has been charged for services from a non-licensed company then they are entitled to a full refund/chargeback.

Hi Andrew

I sympathise with your issue. I have written a couple of small mods (mostly "clones" of other mods) and have also seen them being offered on other sites under the guise of an "installation fee".

This is a difficult area.

While you and I are able to install most modules in under a minute, a large number of people have no idea of even basic html, php, css, web-hosting, file structures, etc.

And they are quite happy to pay a fee for someone to do the installing for them.

I suppose that as long as people make it quite clear that the fee is being charged for INSTALLATION, then there is nothing "illegal" about what they are doing. They are not selling the software.

When we win new clients, one of the first things we tell them is that the zencart software is opensource, and in its original form, it is FREE. We do not charge for the software, but do charge for designing and managing sites that use it.

We also tell them that if they want additional functionality, we will first see if there is a compatible opensource module, and we charge a nominal fee to install it. If they need bespoke functionality, they pay per hour.

I think that when we release a module into the public domain under the OS licence, then we have to accept that it is in the public domain, and that others are perfectly entitled to charge fees for their expertise and time (not for the module) if they make it clear that the module itself is free.

But I see a difference between designing a site based on Zencart for a customer and offering an installation service based on other peoples work. In the second instance it would appear that nothing is created and there is no flow of revenue back to the Zencart community. As far as I am concerned there are two ways to donate back to the community- Either by a donation or by providing services (such as support and mod development). These sites appear to do neither. Worse than that, they could block revenue to mod authors who provide their mods free of charge but also charge for installation and/or after-sales services.

And there's still the issue of these sites offering these services without even having the courtesy of contacting the authors...

But I see a difference between designing a site based on Zencart for a customer and offering an installation service based on other peoples work. In the second instance it would appear that nothing is created

What's created is that a bare-bones website has been given added functionality, using a free add-on and the time of the person installing it (which is not free). I'm not exactly sure what your argument is?

Short of your providing free installs to anyone who asks, you would limit its use to site owners who have the ability to install add-ons for themselves. Because the only other people who are going to install add-ons are those who charge for doing so.

Any add-on you write for Zen Cart is covered by the same GPL licence that Zen Cart is issued under and as the GPL actually encourages people to make money from providing services for GPL products there's no need of contacting or paying the author of the add-on. That's something you accept when you code an add-on for something that's GPL.

I no longer provide installation services, but if I were to do so then I would charge for it. The add-on may be free but my time isn't.

I can see that you would be annoyed (as anyone would) by being spammed about such services, but the golden rule is that you never trust people to work on your site who engage in spamming - because goodness knows what else they may be up to, or even if they are competent.

Vger

But I don't see the need to list or hotlink Zencart mods on a third party site. They could easily just provide a link back to the Free Mod section here. But they didn't. They copied that section onto their own site. Also they 'cherry picked' which mods they wanted and did not list the rest- giving a false indicator of mods available.

I suppose the thing that really gets me is that they have done this behind my back (and no doubt; other mod authors backs too). I have no problem with anyone making a living from installing Zencart and various mods- as long as the downloads come from here and the support requests go here. This is all for the benefit of the community. What these sites appear to do does not have any benefit to the community (in fact the opposite).

Finally given that they have spammed me- I'm guessing that they have spammed my clients too. I think they got their mailing list from scraping the Showcase Shops. This means they have probably spammed a lot of other peoples clients too.

they have done this behind my back

No, they haven't. They are encouraged to carry on this sort of business by the GPL Licence itself. The spamming is a different matter and should warn anyone off using their services.

they 'cherry picked' which mods they wanted

Of course they did. Any business would do exactly the same.

I have no problem with anyone making a living from installing Zencart and various mods - as long as the downloads come from here and the support requests go here

Would you want to provide support here for free for a mod of yours which was (perhaps) incompetently installed by someone who had been paid to do it? I think not.

There was a thread on here yesterday, or the day before, where someone had paid a company to install an add-on and they'd stuffed the site up. Everyone here told him to go back to them and get them to fix the problem.

We don't live in some kind of Utopia. The real world can be a pain sometimes, but it's all we've got.

Vger

Vger:

Would you want to provide support here for free for a mod of yours which was (perhaps) incompetently installed by someone who had been paid to do it? I think not.

I have provided free support for all of my mods here- Come to think of it I might have provided free support to individuals who have been paid to install one of my mods. This will make me a bit more cautious about who I provide support to in the future.

hem:

But I see a difference between designing a site based on Zencart for a customer and offering an installation service based on other peoples work. In the second instance it would appear that nothing is created and there is no flow of revenue back to the Zencart community.

So are you suggesting that the time it takes to install someones elses mod isn't worth anything to the installer?
That doesn't seem right to me.

The IT industry thrives on people paying for the support of other peoples' software.

hem:

As far as I am concerned there are two ways to donate back to the community- Either by a donation or by providing services (such as support and mod development). These sites appear to do neither.

They provide installation services. You said it yourself.

hem:

Worse than that, they could block revenue to mod authors who provide their mods free of charge but also charge for installation and/or after-sales services.

So exactly what is your business model based upon?

You may argue that these installers are 'not giving back to the community' but that isn't the case, they are in fact moving zencart towards a fully sustainable business model. Many of the larger companies avoid GPL software because there is little or no commercial backing, and these installation companies (as small as some of them may be), do in fact provide this commercial support that the larger companies require, namely, accountability.
This increases the userbase, which increases support, and the cycle continues. .

hem:

And there's still the issue of these sites offering these services without even having the courtesy of contacting the authors...

Why should they? Do you/we need to contact Microsoft asking for permission to support Windows users? Should we all contact Linus Torvolds if we wish to offer commercial support for Linux?

If you are really worried about these businesses 'blocking your revenue' it can only be because they are in competition with your own installation and/or support fees, and as the author the software you should be able to undercut any competition, if you wanted to ...

Meanwhile, I suggest you take the opposite view of these businesses, they aren't really in competition with you at all, they are in fact working for you by installing and supporting YOUR software and not wanting a cent from you for doing so :) How can you complain about that?

Just my 2cents worth.

Cheers
Rod

Sorry Rod- your Microsoft analogy only goes so far- It's like someone supporting your Microsoft product finds that they need a patch, an updated driver or a diagnostic tool and rather than downloading it from Microsoft (or in the case of the driver- from the vendors site) they go to some unknown 3rd party site that you have never heard of.

A lot of Malware gets into computers this way.

Also, Microsoft like it if you pass one of their MSCD courses before offering support. And customers go looking for this too. There are a couple of companies that I install for that revoke my right to do so if I have not done a refresher (aka waste of time and money) course with them over the last year. Failure to do this cancels the end users maintenance and warranty. I'm not saying that Zencart should go this route but there is a lot to be said about establishing your credibility. Otherwise the whole thing could go the way of Template Monster....

Alright - maybe the Microsoft comparison wasn't the best, but you completely skipped the Linux comparison (which is valid). Also the point being made was that you don't need to consult with or get permission to adapt Linux in some way or to extend its functions.

I'm bowing out now, because this is becoming a hobby-horse and will obviously go on ad-infinitum.

Vger

Well I've never done any Linux mods but I would be surprised if there are not 'trusted' repositories that these are hosted from. I can say that I've seen P2P torrents that have claimed to be legit Linux mods that other people have claimed to be trojan horses. But I only have the one Linus install and have never loaded any of these so I cannot claim whether they are right or wrong.

As for a hobby-horse; No so much. It only came to my attention this previous Monday and I posted this here then to see what reaction the Zencart community has. I probably would have been fine with the whole situation if the site had at least emailed me and said that they want to do this. It's more that I only found out once they'd spammed me.

I think you were right earlier- It's not that they are offering such a service but more how they go about offering it (scraping the Showcase Sites and blind spamming them) that's probably troubling me.

hem:

I posted this here then to see what reaction the Zencart community has.

It seems to me that the consensus is that there is nothing wrong with what these businesses/people are doing and you are the exception rather than the rule.

hem:

I probably would have been fine with the whole situation if the site had at least emailed me and said that they want to do this.

But this isn't the way GPL works .... didn't you know that when you released your code/module under the GPL licence? Why not?

hem:

It's more that I only found out once they'd spammed me.

So what you are REALLY objecting to is the spam, and not the fact that they are charging for the time it takes them to install your module?

Well, I do agree with you on this one, spamming costs the the IT industry (and therefore the end users) quite a fortune to maintain/control, and if left unchecked it could (literally) grind the internet to a halt. Seriously, most end users only have an inkling of the battle being fought on this front).

hem:

I think you were right earlier- It's not that they are offering such a service but more how they go about offering it (scraping the Showcase Sites and blind spamming them) that's probably troubling me.

If this IS what they are doing then I say good for them. Seriously, because by doing this they aren't behaving like a typical spammer, they are identifying and targeting those people most likely to use their services. A 'real' spammer doesn't care about such things, they'll send their spam to all and sundry, even if the recipient clearly has no interest.
Technically it can still be considered 'spam' (The definition being "Unsolicited Commercial Email", or UCE), but for all you know they may have only sent this email to you and one or two others, so the 'offence' may be no worse than a friend sending you a personal email informing you of a similar service.

One persons spam is another persons meat.

I do appreciate the sentiments that these people possibly make more money from your work than you do, but that really is just a fact of life that you should probably get used to. I can never forget 'QWKRR' (a program wrote many years ago, I hardly made a cent from this program, BUT a woman that eventually became my wife, recieved some very nice payments from various magazines for writing reviews of the program. She made more from the reviews than I made from the software itself.

It is possible to make an income from GPL licencing, but it is very difficult to make an income from GPL software itself. The $$$ is in support services, and as per my original posting in this matter, if you can't beat your "competition" in regards to the support and installation of software that you created then there is something seriously amiss.

Although I admit that I have no objection to what these businsess are doing, I must also stress that I don't necessarily support them. A 'bad' business offering such 'support' can do irreparable damage to the reputation of the core software, just as a 'good' business can only go to enhance it.

Finally, as vger has stated, this thread could go on forever, so this is going to be my last post in this thread.
I doubt that any of my comments will have changed your opinion (but that wasn't the intent), because regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I am hoping that at least some of my comments may help you see things from a different perspective.. You/we may not like the practice or methods used, but it isn't personal, it is business, plain and simple.

Cheers
Rod

Thanks for your post Rod. After considering yours and Vgers posts I find myself in the following mindframe:

1. Should I continue to provide free support for my mods? Especially as I could be providing free support to people who are being paid to support them.
2. When installing mods not written by me for customers (of which I'm being paid for) I should look to recompense the original author in some way. Otherwise in light of point #1, I'd be a hypocrite.
3. Or consider an alternative license rather than use the GPL. But I don't think that the Zencart framework allows this.

Or consider an alternative license rather than use the GPL. But I don't think that the Zencart framework allows this.

Correctamundo!

Vger

hem:

Should I continue to provide free support for my mods?

This is entirely up to you. You are certainly under no obligation to do so.

hem:

Especially as I could be providing free support to people who are being paid to support them.

In this case why not identify the people and simply refuse them any free support.

hem:

When installing mods not written by me for customers (of which I'm being paid for) I should look to recompense the original author in some way.

Hmm, no, not really, you need to look after your business and let them look after theirs.

If one of my customers wants me to install one of your modules I'd gladly do so (with suitable payment) and I don't/won't feel obligated to recompense you in any way, shape or form. If I'm feeling 'generous' I may encourage my customer(s) to send you a donation for creating the code, but I'm not going to make any donations on thier behalf.

hem:

Otherwise in light of point #1, I'd be a hypocrite.

Yes you would, which is why I think we are trying to teach you that your current thinking is a little flawed. To avoid becoming a hypocrite you need to (sadly) forget your 'idealistic' view of GPL and consider it for what it really is, which, in very simple terms, protects free software from being made into a commercial product without permission.

It doesn't prevent anyone from charging for support services, and there is still nothing inherently wrong with this because support and product really are totally different things.

hem:

Or consider an alternative license rather than use the GPL. But I don't think that the Zencart framework allows this.

Not quite so. It is true that in order for your module(s) to be hosted on the zencart site in the downloads section it MUST be GPL, you could just as easily host your module(s) on your own site and sell them from there under a different licence. However doing this could/would make your module(s) very difficult for people to find, and since the discussion of commercial software isn't allowed either (as far as I'm aware) you'll need to find other alternatives for this too.
Furthermore, if you module(s) are the only one of their kind, unless it is very complex, it will only be a matter of time before someone else creates another GPL alternative, and where will that leave your product and/or the support services for it?

It still comes back to you and your core business though.. Do you want to sell software, or create and/or support it? It is possible to do both, but for maximum returns, it has been shown time and time again, that giving away the software and charging for the support is generally far more lucritive than doing both..
The creation of the software merely provides you with something to support. The GPL allows others to also support your software, but it prevents them from claiming it as thier own and commercialising it.

If however you believe that your module(s) have good commercial value and that people won't object to paying for the software itself, then why not 'make the jump' and go commercial? It is all one big numbers game!

Cheers
Rod

Hi,
I am not totally ZENNED yet. but permit my little contribution.
You see I came to be Zenned from a company that I contracted to design a e commerce site. I found myself with zen cart ..... kinda like it.
I paid the company for there services. But they used zen cart totally for the design and they claim its their design. Now tell me who should receive the bulk of the money that I paid to these fellows?

HENRY

Well, your site does not use the standard Zen Cart template. I admit it's no great shake as a redesign, but presumably you agreed it with them and paid them. The default Zen Cart template is a rather ugly green thing (sorry Zen Cart Team - I know it won a competition, but the others must have been REALLY ugly).

Good luck at trying to get your money back - you'll need it!

Vger

exdealsad:

Now tell me who should receive the bulk of the money that I paid to these fellows?

HENRY

They should, per the terms of the contract you agreed to.

I've only contributed one 'mod' (just a template, really), but I think that if someone needs to pay another company to install it, I've done a poor job of writing installation instructions.

I don't know which mods hem has contributed, but I'm not impressed with the instructions that come with a lot of Zencart mods. Making it easier to install the mods you've written may make the whole question moot.

exdealsad:

Hi,
I am not totally ZENNED yet. but permit my little contribution.
You see I came to be Zenned from a company that I contracted to design a e commerce site. I found myself with zen cart ..... kinda like it.
I paid the company for there services. But they used zen cart totally for the design and they claim its their design. Now tell me who should receive the bulk of the money that I paid to these fellows?

HENRY
This exactly how I came across Zen Cart. I hired a company to do a website (Big company for that matter). When the complete site was delivered months later. It was very simple Zen Cart template which probably takes me 1day to finish now. But I paid over $3000 for it.

When you hire a company to do a website for you, you must sign a contract, in that contract they probably mention that they would use opensource software. Unless you SPECIFY that you need a completely custom built store, you have no case against them. Even with a completely custom platform there would be a lot of modules that would be used from the opensource.

It just doesn't make sense to recreate the wheel. And opensource just makes it easier and faster to build your dream store.

If you feel bad for the Zen Cart developers, feel free to support them by donating a few bucks.

Thanks for your post Rod. After considering yours and Vgers posts I find myself in the following mindframe:

1. Should I continue to provide free support for my mods? Especially as I could be providing free support to people who are being paid to support them.
2. When installing mods not written by me for customers (of which I'm being paid for) I should look to recompense the original author in some way. Otherwise in light of point #1, I'd be a hypocrite.
3. Or consider an alternative license rather than use the GPL. But I don't think that the Zencart framework allows this.

1. If your mods are useful I suggest you keep supporting them. There are a lot of people the use the forum and might use your mods but need it customized for one reason or another. In that case they would most likely contact you for that. Plus you might get hired for more work if you are known in the forum as a good developer. I have hired a few of the developer that had Free addons for additional work.
2. Most of developer that have Free addons don't do it for direct profit, Just like I said earlier, if you are making money from an opensource software, it is a good idea to donate to the developer if they accept donations.