PAYPAL Express sometimes NOT Adding Shipping cost during PayPal login

ZenCart v 1.3.9h upgraded from 1.3.9g

PAYPAL Express sometimes NOT Adding Shipping cost to final price. Any ideas why ?

For example if I add a product to the cart and then select the "Checkout with PayPal" button it does not add the freight cost.

However if I first use the "Go to Checkout" option within ZenCart and then go back and Checkout with PayPal, it adds the freight cost.

This is non consistent though. Sometimes it works straight up and sometimes I need to go to checkout in ZenCart first to get the shipping cost registered.

This seems to be more of a problem when the user is NOT logged in, but the problem still sometimes happens even when logged in.

Very odd and concerning as it means customers can sometimes order products and not pay the shipping charge. :(

ZenCart v 1.3.9h upgraded from 1.3.9g

It's by design.

Zen Cart cannot magically guess the shipping cost until the customer provides a shipping address. And if they've not yet logged in, then there's no shipping address to use for calculating shipping.
Instead, once the customer returns from selecting their funding options at PayPal, their shipping address is shared back to Zen Cart and then shipping is calculated and shown to the customer before they confirm the final payment amount.

Thanks, but I think this appears to be a BUG, as even if I enter the shipping address details for a Shipping Estimate, ZenCart still fails to utilize this session data when I select the "Checkout with PayPal" button.

This seems especially an issue when the user is not logged in, as logged in users have usually provided their address to ZenCart. Thus usually this shipping address is available to ZenCart for logged in users to be used to calculate the shipping cost to be include along with the products price, for transfer to the PayPal form.

I think this PayPal button should not process the transaction until the user has at least entered the shipping address via the Estimate Shipping option, if no shipping data is available and shipping is not free. That can surely be programmed around.

I don't think customers should be able to process a transaction that has a shipping cost associated with it and not have that cost included in the transaction total. That doesn't make any sense. If it is by design, then I think it's an unnecessary design limitation, however I really think it's a design flaw.

I think if the customer is to be allowed to use this feature, the customer shipping address ( if not available to ZenCart ) should be captured via a form, prior to it being sent on to PayPal along with a total cost including delivery.

If this can already be done with the products price being sent to the PayPal form, I would have thought it should be possible to add a delivery address via a pre PayPal address capture form, whether or not the user is logged in. I can't see why that would not be possible.

Ideally though I think the actual shipping cost should be re-calculated after the full postal address has been provided by the customer, regardless of whether they are logged in or not. This should be prompted for via a postal address input form, displayed after the user has selected the "Checkout with PayPal" button.

If the user is logged in, then ZenCart can populate the form with the users postal address, which can either be edited or left as is, or if blank, the customer can then enter their full postal address. I think that really is common sense, at least conceptually.

You seem to be fully confused about how the "checkout with paypal" button works on the shopping cart page. Since it's confusing to you, perhaps you should just turn it off. Set the "Express Checkout Shortcut Button" option to false in your ZC EC settings and all your misunderstanding of how it works will disappear.

There is no confusion at all, nor any misunderstanding. The process is logically flawed. A user should not be able to allow the ZenCart system to make this basic processing error, regardless of whether they are logged in or not.

It's an obvious ZenCart design flaw that increases the risk of error and thus incorrect pricing being applied, then later requiring post transaction correction. This feature should not be released if it's not reliable and clearly it is not reliable. It's a software quality control issue.

Your opinion is noted.
And a very workable solution has already been provided to you.

There is an option in the PayPal Express setup to require shipping address confirmation, but it does not seem to work. i.e. as per below.

"Express Checkout: Require Confirmed Address
Do you want to require that your (not-logged-in) customers use a confirmed address when choosing their shipping address in PayPal? (this is ignored for logged-in customers)"

I had it set to;

Express Checkout: Require Confirmed Address
Yes

This option does not seem to work, as it did not insist I provide a shipping address when not logged in and when selecting the PayPal Express button. Therefore on that basis, this appears to be a BUG. Not much point calling it PayPal Express Checkout, if it does not work as an Express Checkout should.

Again, you misunderstand.

That "confirmed address" feature is something managed on the PayPal side. If enabled it will cause PayPal to reject a customer's purchase if they do not select a "confirmed address" from their PayPal address book.
It DOES NOT make the not-logged-in customer enter an address before they go to PayPal to provide funding instructions.

Thanks for the work around for now, however regardless of where this PayPal Express option is processed, the process appears flawed, because as per your explanation, it's evident that PayPal does not calculate and apply the shipping cost to the transaction total and nor does ZenCart in this instance of PayPal Express for users that are not logged in.

The only chance of the shipping cost being applied seems to be via ZenCart. I'm not aware that PayPal has a shipping module on its side and it makes more sense for the shipping cost application to be handled by the same system. i.e. ZenCart. Therefore the PayPal Express option appears faulty and is likely to result in erroneous transactions. It appears essentially a ZenCart design flaw and hence a BUG in the PayPal Express module and the way ZenCart integrates with it.

The work around is useful, however it means that the PayPal Express option is not reliably operable as it stands, as there is a clear propensity for transaction error to result from its use.

HeyIts007:

it's evident that PayPal does not calculate and apply the shipping cost to the transaction total and nor does ZenCart in this instance of PayPal Express for users that are not logged in.
You're over-applying that.

More clarification yet again ...

In Zen Cart 1.3.x, a customer clicking the EC shortcut button on the shopping cart page will go to PayPal's site to select a funding choice AND THEN return to YOUR store where all the shipping and tax information is properly calculated using all the available address information.

If they use the normal checkout flow and choose PayPal on the checkout-payment page, then all the required address/tax information is already provided and thus when the customer is directed to PayPal for funding choices all that information is presented on the PayPal screen at that time.

They're TWO DIFFERENT flows, each with their own pro's and con's.

Whether you consider it a bug or a design flaw or whatever words you want to throw at it, that's how it works.

If your goal here is just that you want to be acknowledged for pointing out something that doesn't work the way you think it should, as I said, your view has been noted.

But if your goal is to actually change things so that your store works differently to suit your preferred approach, then why not go write the code that works the way you want it instead of arguing about it?

I have no interest in acknowledgement as per your remarks. I have simply posted detail about my observation about PayPal Express, open for anyone's view or comment and contrary to your remarks there is no argument.

I commented on what I had observed about the payment process flow. You have commented about that observation. Speculation about personal motivation is neither here nor there and likely to be unreliable.

My goal was to comment on what I observed, which I did. Whether that brings about change or not is I expect incidental, though if under such circumstances the payment process flow was ever changed to capture the address details first, before redirecting to PayPal, I would download the update.

As things stand, under such circumstances particularly where the user is not logged in or might not even have a ZenCart account, it does not seem to qualify as "Express" payment, as it appears to take longer to process, than if one had simply logged in to ZenCart and or created a ZenCart account in the first instance. It seems somewhat convoluted even if by design.

HeyIts007:

As things stand, under such circumstances particularly where the user is not logged in or might not even have a ZenCart account, it does not seem to qualify as "Express" payment, as it appears to take longer to process, than if one had simply logged in to ZenCart and or created a ZenCart account in the first instance. It seems somewhat convoluted even if by design.You're not the first person to complain that PayPal's prescribed "flow" of their "Express Checkout" product may not actually be equivalent to their choice of the product's name. However, your feelings on PayPal's products will probably have more impact if you were to voice them to PayPal directly. Zen Cart is simply following the prescribed implementation as required by PayPal.

I duly note the PayPal enquiry option. I can see there might perhaps be some security reasons why PayPal might require this convoluted payment process flow for non verified users.

I am looking into the Paypal order flow now and see it makes sense to have the Paypal option appear later in the payment part of the checkout (not in the cart which is how it appeared when I enabled the Paypal module) Can someone kindly direct me toward the information on how to set it up that way in Zen Cart? :)

P.S. This issue doesn't qualify as a bug or even a design flaw in Zen Cart. It would be a bug if, for example, the customer got through the parts of the cart intended to calculate those things and it didn't pass that info over to Paypal. The way Paypal works at that point in the cart is causing a usability issue but it is definitely not an error or bug in Zen Cart.

P.P.S. NOT stirring the pot, just trying to help foster clarity and communication. Let's hug it out. :hug:

craftideasweekly:

I am looking into the Paypal order flow now and see it makes sense to have the Paypal option appear later in the payment part of the checkout (not in the cart which is how it appeared when I enabled the Paypal module) Can someone kindly direct me toward the information on how to set it up that way in Zen Cart? :)

Found it. In order to allow the customer to get through your checkout process before payment (thereby allowing your site to calculate tax and shipping properly) you must use Paypal IPN - not the Website Payments Pro + Express Checkout.

There is information on how to set up Paypal IPN at the bottom of this post: http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showpost.php?p=372071&postcount=11

Just set it up and it does exactly what I need it to do - offer an additional payment option at the point the customer is ready to complete their order. Yay!

Thanks!
Molly

craftideasweekly:

Found it. In order to allow the customer to get through your checkout process before payment (thereby allowing your site to calculate tax and shipping properly) you must use Paypal IPN - not the Website Payments Pro + Express Checkout.
Incorrect.
You can offer Express Checkout ... all you need to do is set the "Express Checkout Shortcut Button" status to off in your ZC Express Checkout settings. Simple.
And WAY MORE reliable than the IPN module.

DrByte:

Incorrect.
You can offer Express Checkout ... all you need to do is set the "Express Checkout Shortcut Button" status to off in your ZC Express Checkout settings. Simple.
And WAY MORE reliable than the IPN module.

That is great info - thanks very much...I'll make the change.

Thanks again,
Molly