Can I Use Old TemplateMonster Templates On New ZC Versions?

I'm really impressed with the community response to my inquiry!

@RodG: your post in conjunction with schoolboy's have give me a better grasp on how the system works. You two are very insightful.

@SPH: your visual representation of what it means to turn a basic template into a working product was GREAT. Thank you for that. I also agree that the logo and banner elements are the hardest part of designing a website. I admit that I'm tempted to outsource these elements to other graphic designers at times.

@dgent: I'm glad a know all of those things you mentioned -- save for php -- to be spared by that rant, lol.

@Schoolboy: your two examples have also helped me to clear some of my previous concerns. The fact that those two templates feel completely different means to me -- and hopefully everyone else -- that any-one template an be used to create something totally unique.

Thank you to the rest that I may have missed.

I've downloaded a basic template that I plan on making a master piece. How long that will take? No idea.

Daykeem.

schoolboy:

Most of the world's really successful online retailers actually have very BASIC site designs (unless they are into some "posh" area of women's fashion - but even then, the really large UK highstreet chains keep their sites very graphically "subdued". They know that the KEY FOCUS must be the product. Go look at the SIZE of the shop logo on AMAZON.COM, WALMART.COM, DIXONS.CO.UK, CURRYS.CO.UK, STAPLES.CO.UK . They are all very tiny... the Amazon logo measures just 50px X 200px.

These retailers KNOW what matters - the PRODUCTS ! They place HUGE emphasis on product displays and showcasing. They know that people are there for the SOLE REASON to look at the products.

Nobody goes to Amazon to spend 10 minutes looking at their logo, or their background colors... They go to Amazon to look at PRODUCTS. So these site have very SUBDUED general (corporate) graphics, but the PRODUCT DATA and PRODUCT IMAGERY is very bold, strong and prominent.

.

A valid point, but a bit irrelevant, as if you created a new store and made it look just like Amazons layout, colours, style etc, it would look pretty crap. Amazon as an example is a terrible site design and user wise too.

Im sure the £1 shop in your local town does lots of turn over, but it still looks basic, bland cheap, and you don't have a feeling of quality.

Amazon and eBay arent directly selling you any product, so thats not an issue. They are not trying to sell a brand. - the Currys and Dixons site you mentioned are highly graphical and image based.

SPH:

I don't think that most people go to a site to sit back with a coke and bag of pop-corn to watch a slide-show. :) That and the difficulty of making decent slide photos is why I've never used one.

I understand that the products have to be paramount.

And I am a huge fan of the less-is-more theory and of all or mostly white sites in general. But all those sites you mention, they also all look good, very good. Great product photos are a given. But also nice supporting banners and colors. With just that, we could all forget about colors: just have a mostly white site with maybe some nice color on the main nav bar and very nice supporting banners. Like this site by one of our competitors (much larger than us): macktakmart . com

I'm a guy, so what I think looks nice gets constantly voted down from a woman's view point. I feel like Mel Gibson in "What Women Want." I've done some study indicating that the color of a site can affect men and women differently. For me, the default bluish All Business template (which I just came from) and the facebook-like IcAtheme template (which went through my best years) gets the best female feed-back.

I'm just trying Cherry Zen past couple days, and thankfully it comes with two good "female" colors: Purple/Lavender which I'm using and the Blue version. (I'm also interested in this template because I think it started it all re the horizontal nav layout and I may get in to zencart work.)

I have never been a fan of background images in general and only put mine up on the new Cherry Zen the other night, to see how it looks. Otherwise, I had an all white background (no img) and very well may return to it soon.

Suggested logo is only 164x90, but have not yet gotten to that.

But yes: I'm thinking that an all or mostly all white site is probably the safest...just so it doesn't cross over into boring.

sph
https://www.prommart.com

PS: Come to think of it, All Business and Cherry Zen were designed by women. Maybe best to go with that for a women's site.

Or try a slightly off white, to grey/pastel, like this forum. Or check the link to my dress site in my signature. That site gets over 70,000 visitors a month.

dgent:

If you're not, use a ready to go template, or use another cart, otherwise you're going to go no-where.I agree except why recommend a site which has templates which are KNOWN to be pretty but problematic.. A few years back the free templates available were NOT out the box pretty I agree.. However, today, there are plenty of ready made and good looking options available that are properly put together AND easier to modify (if the shopowner so desires) than Template Monstrosity and their templates full of endless nested divs and missing core code..

DivaVocals:

I agree except why recommend a site which has templates which are KNOWN to be pretty but problematic.. A few years back the free templates available were NOT out the box pretty I agree.. However, today, there are plenty of ready made and good looking options available that are properly put together AND easier to modify (if the shopowner so desires) than Template Monstrosity and their templates full of endless nested divs and missing core code..

Ok find me a site with over 100 templates available with a really professional look in every genre available for Zencart, other than TM.

Every one is saying 'don't use TM' but no one offers anything as an alternative.

Remeber most people that start out with Zencart have zero experience with css etc so saying 'templates that can be easily' modified is not an option. Alot of people just want an out of the box online store they can put their products on and make money from.

Which is where we get back to what I have said before, that while everybody should make some customizations to their template so it does not look like every other one out there, many just will not, and a neutral contemporary stock template will let their products be the focus instead of the sidebox/centerbox headers.

Except MANY MORE small owners do not simply load Zen Cart, create their products and move on.. As evidenced by the support forum, they want to modify their stores and that's where Template Monstrosity templates and the the slash and burn methods they use to create their pretty little templates fall flat on it's face with their infinite nested divs, and their penchant for discarding core Zen Cart code. The minute these same folks want to install a mod or two is when things usually start to get ugly..

dgent:

Every one is saying 'don't use TM'I would be all for Template Monstrosity if they bothered to create templates without the unecessary nested divs or removing core code to "make" their templates work.. EVERY SINGLE ONE of their templates could be recreated without the slash and burn techniques they use to create them..

dgent:

Ok find me a site with over 100 templates available with a really professional look in every genre available for Zencart, other than TM.
dgent:

but no one offers anything as an alternative.Well let's start here then.. http://www.picaflor-azul.com/ and this is not the only source available for properly coded professional looking Zen Cart templates.

dgent:

Remeber most people that start out with Zencart have zero experience with css etc so saying 'templates that can be easily' modified is not an option.Any small business owner who decides to take on the task of building their own website using a tool as powerful as Zen Cart owes it to themselves to LEARN CSS. I do not accept that the DIY small business owner should not have to learn how to manage their own store up to and including how to manage the look and feel of it..

dgent:

Alot of people just want an out of the box online store they can put their products on and make money from.Unfortunately the posts on the forum do not bear this out.. If this was all there was to it you wouldn't see posts from the DIY small business owner asking for help to fix something that blew up when they wanted to modify their "out of the box online store they can put their products on and make money from"

DivaVocals:

Well let's start here then.. http://www.picaflor-azul.com/ and this is not the only source available for properly coded professional looking Zen Cart templates.

Any small business owner who decides to take on the task of building their own website using a tool as powerful as Zen Cart owes it to themselves to LEARN CSS. I do not accept that the DIY small business owner should not have to learn how to manage their own store up to and including how to manage the look and feel of it..

Unfortunately the posts on the forum do not bear this out.. If this was all there was to it you wouldn't see posts from the DIY small business owner asking for help to fix something that blew up when they wanted to modify their "out of the box online store they can put their products on and make money from"

(a) The Picaflor is no where near the style of what TM offers.

(b) Only on an open source ecommerce program. I know plenty of business owners that have used corporate ecommerce software and all the styling adjustments are internal to the website admin, ie they do not need to hack stylesheets themselves.

(c) Id love to see where you got this data from. Go to the top, click new posts, and see every day how many people have issues with broken sites or things that don't work, or don't know how to do something. Now select all the ones from those posts that have TM templates. More people have problems with sites they have built themselves.

This is no different to saying to someone, 'dont buy a brand new car, you can't work on it yourself if it breaks, and you need to pay a dealership - buy an older car and you can do all this'...And the guy in the brand new car is looking at you thinking 'but you drive a piece of crap, and I can afford it/don't really care and your car never seems to look like its running as well as mine, whereas mine is fantastic.'

The fact is, 99% of users that have installed Zencart, and bought a TM template, are perfectly fine and making sales, their site looks lovely and they are happy with it. Yes, later on, they may want to have an extra column, and realise they can't but, hell thats life. Before database driven e-commerce came along, lots of people had static page websites, and couldnt add a column or different listing either, without major work. Who are you to tell them they are doing it wrong?

Its just going round and around in circles. I have sites with hacked pieces of code, butchered beyond belief, to get what I needed, because I needed those mods fast. I don't have time to sit around waiting to learn how to do it the 'correct' way etc...But the sites work perfectly for my customers, and I handle over £10 million per annum turnover through these sites, and have a database of over 1.5 million customers on file, and I could do the same using a TM template on these stores. Yet I have people with sites that do a couple of sales a month telling 'me' im 'doing it wrong'.

dgent:

(a) The Picaflor is no where near the style of what TM offers.In YOUR opinion.. Which you are entitled to have.. Let's just say we don't agree..

dgent:

(b) Only on an open source ecommerce program. I know plenty of business owners that have used corporate ecommerce software and all the styling adjustments are internal to the website admin, ie they do not need to hack stylesheets themselves.and since we're talking about open source (AKA Zen Cart) your comparison to commercial software is a lot like comparing apples to oranges.. Both fruit, but not exactly the same..

dgent:

(c) Id love to see where you got this data from.Ummm... Same place I imagine you got your data from..

dgent:

The fact is, 99% of users that have installed Zencart, and bought a TM template, are perfectly fine and making sales, their site looks lovely and they are happy with it. Yes, later on, they may want to have an extra column, and realise they can't but, hell thats life. Before database driven e-commerce came along, lots of people had static page websites, and couldnt add a column or different listing either, without major work. Who are you to tell them they are doing it wrong?I see you've missed my point here.. So let me say this again.. If a shop owner's Template Monstrosity template removes code that Zen Cart or an add-on needs which later causes OTHER issues.. well that's a problem is it not??..

My sister has this TM template on one of her secondary sites:

http://www.templatemonster.com/demo/32422.html

Here it is on her site:

http://www.quince-dresses.com/

I think too much orange to look as good as the demo, and we never did get the background image looking right (the stock one was inappropriate.)

But everything works. Footer menu mod, Lightbox, Simple SEO URL. Only thing is we had to dedicate some top ezpages to the login stuff, as it was all in the footer. And we did re-arrange the product layout page.

No problems with the TM template.

She did buy a template from another souce (not Picaflor) but ended up "returning" it.

I was very impressed with TM's demo template http://www.templatemonster.com/free-zencart-templates.html when I had it on my secondary site, http://www.fashion-mart.biz/ , now Apple Zen.

Everything worked on that insofar as the typical mods I use.

But I don't think that even TM has the best templates.

Here is a Chinese competitor who I was told on the Pub is a zencart:

http://www.ulovebridal.com/

I really like the over-all layout. I never had a side-flyout looking that good.

But the product pages is where I think it stands out, and stands out from TM templates. Even without all of the gadgets and widgets, looks really professional, to me anyway.

I want that template! LOL

Dgent, "I handle over £10 million per annum turnover through these sites" holy c r a p! That's outstanding. With that, I guess you could have any platform and support you want.

sph
https://www.prommart.com

SPH:

But I don't think that even TM has the best templates.

Here is a Chinese competitor who I was told on the Pub is a zencart:

http://www.ulovebridal.com/

I really like the over-all layout. I never had a side-flyout looking that good.

But the product pages is where I think it stands out, and stands out from TM templates. Even without all of the gadgets and widgets, looks really professional, to me anyway.

I want that template! LOLAnd like Picaflor this is another contributor of some of the better looking free templates available in the free downloads: http://www.12leaves.com. They certainly offer some clearner looking BASIC templates that would as Glenn pointed offer a clean starting point for a shop owner starting out.. Like Picaflor it looks like they also offer premium options. While I've only spent a little time with one of the free templates they created, they appear to be properly built (like Picaflor's templates)..

Yes, 12 leaves has some nice templates. Here's another one (although sometimes I think they are the same people):

http://www.pixemus.com/free-templates-ecommerce.html

Here's their free Abagon Red template I've been messing with the colors on a third level (ie, go no where) site:

http://www.promdressesforless.us/

I like their footer area and mainly their product layout page looks somehow more modern to me, approaching that Chinese site.

I actually had this template on my main site https://www.prommart.com for a day or so, until my wife and sister in law voted it down as to manly looking. But I still like it and it just looks...substantial, to me.

The quirk with abagon red: all of the horizontal banners are set for homepage only. But I did manage to "fix" that, getting them to operate standard zencart way.

I'm collecting templates as I have a dream of maybe putting up zencarts for others. Yes, virtually all of Picaflor's will work!

sph
https://www.prommart.com

DivaVocals:

I see you've missed my point here.. So let me say this again.. If a shop owner's Template Monstrosity template removes code that Zen Cart or an add-on needs which later causes OTHER issues.. well that's a problem is it not??..

You're missing the point. None of the admin layout settings make any difference to the customer or create more conversions.

Design, professionalism, image...DO.

dgent:

You're missing the point. None of the admin layout settings make any difference to the customer or create more conversions.

Design, professionalism, image...DO.Ummmmm well okay.. but if the site is BROKEN because of an issue caused by the TEMPLATE, then yeah it would make a HUGE difference to a customer.. but I guess as long as the site is pretty it won't matter right?? oh well..

Not missing any point at all.. there are PLENTY of other options for "out the box pretty/professional" available which do not slash and remove Zen Cart's code unnecessarily (nor do they employe an endless stream of nested divs)..

DivaVocals:

Ummmmm well okay.. but if the site is BROKEN because of an issue caused by the TEMPLATE, then yeah it would make a HUGE difference to a customer.. but I guess as long as the site is pretty it won't matter right?? oh well..

No TM templates are 'broken'. You make it sound like you install a TM template and a customer can't get on your site and make a sale. Which simply isnt true.

If you're talking about admin back end functions, then yes they could be broken (broken as in some switches make no difference - not broken as in you can't work your admin), but it doesnt affect the front end operation (to the customer) of the store, and back end functions make no difference to the customer.

dgent:

No TM templates are 'broken'. You make it sound like you install a TM template and a customer can't get on your site and make a sale. Which simply isnt true.

If you're talking about admin back end functions, then yes they could be broken (broken as in some switches make no difference - not broken as in you can't work your admin), but it doesnt affect the front end operation (to the customer) of the store, and back end functions make no difference to the customer.Ummm okay... Not what I said at all.. But okay..

There are PLENTY of other options for "out the box pretty/professional" templates available which do not slash and remove Zen Cart's code unnecessarily -- which will cause other issues later on down the road (nor do they employee an endless stream of nested divs).. So if "pretty/professional, install and go" templates are the BIG reasons to use Template Monstrosities offerings, then it's certainly no longer the only game in town.. Better constructed options are available..

You did say 'if the site is BROKEN because of an issue caused by the TEMPLATE, then yeah it would make a HUGE difference to a customer'

How does something broken in the admin make a huge difference to the customer....?

So backpeddling aside, yes there are other template options out there which are ok, not as slick as the TM offerings, but do work (all functions in admin) but then on the flipside some of the TM templates have features hard coded into them that Zencart admin doesnt do as standard. So swings and roundabouts.

dgent:

You did say 'if the site is BROKEN because of an issue caused by the TEMPLATE, then yeah it would make a HUGE difference to a customer'

How does something broken in the admin make a huge difference to the customer....?

So because the customer doesn't see it, then broken admin functions should be ignored?? Okay then.. It probably doesn't matter to the customer, unless of course the broken admin function stops an order from going through correctly..

However, I am not not just talking about broken admin functions with regards to Template Monstrosities template offerings..

Broken on the FRONT END as in (and this is just a small sampling of issues):
~ Modifying the sideboxes so that ONLY the sideboxes which are active in the demo are the ONLY ones which work. Instead of modifying the stylesheet so that ALL sideboxes use the same layout look/feel, you must now locate the 20 nested divs which make up the sideboxes look and feel and apply it to to every additional sidebox you wish to activate.
~ DEFAULT sideboxes which don't work at all because they've modified other aspects of the sideboxes to force their look.
~ Modifying the main page and the banner code in particular so that banners with images no longer work correctly particularly when viewing the site via SSL.

Good luck getting Template Monstrosity to fix these things too.. They are LOATHE to make fixes to their templates. In fact they want to blame your Zen Cart install, other mods, etc for code THEY removed which is the cause of the issue.. They practically refuse to fix broken code unless you let them FTP into your site versus simply FIXING the issue and sending you replacement files..

Schoolboy aptly summed up the issue with Template Monstrosity templates:

They are heavily customised to FORCE a FIXED LOOK, and they achieve this by modifying code and REMOVING core functions.
In a discussion years ago on this forum with the good folks at Template Monstrosity, they all but admitted that this is what they do to their templates. In this discussion they were promising to change the way they constructed templates, but instead ran away from the discussion.. and today they continue to churn out these templates which continue to employ poor coding techniques and stripping out core code simply to make their designs work..

dgent:

So backpeddling aside, yes there are other template options out there which are ok, not as slick as the TM offerings, but do work (all functions in admin) but then on the flipside some of the TM templates have features hard coded into them that Zencart admin doesnt do as standard. So swings and roundabouts.no backpedaling on my part here.. You started this and other discussion on this topic by stating that shopowners don't want to spend months learning CSS, that they want pretty/professional looking sites, that they should be able to install a template and start selling..

dgent:

use a ready to go template, or use another cart, otherwise you're going to go no-where.
dgent:

Ok find me a site with over 100 templates available with a really professional look in every genre available for Zencart, other than TM.

Every one is saying 'don't use TM' but no one offers anything as an alternative.

Remeber most people that start out with Zencart have zero experience with css etc so saying 'templates that can be easily' modified is not an option. Alot of people just want an out of the box online store they can put their products on and make money from.

Going back to what YOU have repeatedly stated as the reason shopowners should use a ready to go template: getting a professional looking site up and out there ASAP so they can start selling.. To serve that end, there ARE other options which offer good looking, professional templates that DO NOT force the look by modifying code and removing core functions as the Template Monstrosity templates do -- Picaflor-Azul and 12 Leaves are two such options. They offer both free and premium template options.

Your opinion that the template offerings from these two sites are "not as slick" as Template Monstrosity is YOUR opinion.. Some small shopowner might think the Picaflor-Azul and 12 Leaves templates are JUST as slick.. (and to quote you "who are YOU to tell them they are wrong??") Picaflor-Azul and 12 Leaves templates certainly have the added attraction for small shopowners of having FREE offerings.. If your argument is that pretty/professional/quick is what shopowners with ZERO experience should be going with, then these template offerings certainly do that.. PLUS these template DO NOT break front-end or back-end functionality to "make" their designs work. I am all for DIY shopowners doing what's fast and easy so long as it is using GOOD code, and certainly that cannot be said fully of Template Monstrosities templates..

Templates. My area of expertise, as I've tried many of the free downloads.

Some of the free offerings are "broken":

1. Apple Zen, Cherry Zen, Estorenow: one does not simply go in to the admin and turn on or off a column. Have to dig in to the css or code for that.

2. Black Pure & Lite Red (12 Leaves), Bask Black, my old stand-by icAtheme: missing header 2 banners and/or tag line. The free Abagon Red, all horizontal banners on homepage...what's with that? (I've learned to "fix" some of those.)

3. Cherry Zen which I'm now using, like the old Rubik Modern Zen, the top search icon isn't clickable, one has to hit "enter" on keyborard.

When it comes to functionality and mods, I'm thinking that if it is not in zencart core then one probably does not really need it. I think the only critical mods are: Image Handler, Easy Populate, Column Layout Grid and for me since I use PayPal, Ask a Question (Check Availability). Other than those, the mods might look fancy but are not critical for success (unless I've missed something).

Oh, and the new Dynamic Filter (layered navigation) which I recently discovered: may turn out to be the single MOST important customer-side mod. (Dr. Byte, hope it's okay to mention again. ;) )

The two TM templates I'm familiar with: all of "my" mods work...except I don't yet know about the new Dynamic Filter.

We..the store owners...will always be the weak point with any template. Like my sister's TM one, once we start adding our own graphics things can go down hill from the demo. Same with template layout customizations. Just as with too many with free templates, everyone seems to want to roll up their sleeves and begin changing things: redesigning the template as if they know better (they probably don't.)

One should choose a template that is basically what they want to use, out of the box. Especially so with a commercial template. You like it, you bought it, it looks good - now don't mess it up.

I think that Dgent and I are on the same page on one thing: that from the customer's viewpoint, looks are almost everything. Whether consciously or subconsciously.

SPH
https://www.prommart.com

Also, many highly recommended templates can become "broken" if one uses IE and is in compatability view (or not in compatability view.) IE is the most popular browser, but one can never know what "view" the customer will be in.

sph
https://www.prommart.com