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Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

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13 Oct 2013, 3:32 PM
#1
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Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

hi, I have quite a few modifications I need making, all of which are well out of my depth/beyond my skillset!

I have started to look at outsourcing work and would like the advice of those here that have experience doing this.

I have looked at oDesk & Elance, both seem to have the same developers registered. Which of these site have people used here and do you have any advice?

I have also noticed Freelancer, they seem to have a lot more Zen Cart developers registered than oDesk/Elance. Does anyone have any advice / experience of that site?

Any comments on this is hugely appreciated. Cheers.

13 Oct 2013, 6:40 PM
#2
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

ray-the-otter:

hi, I have quite a few modifications I need making, all of which are well out of my depth/beyond my skillset!

I have started to look at outsourcing work and would like the advice of those here that have experience doing this.

I have looked at oDesk & Elance, both seem to have the same developers registered. Which of these site have people used here and do you have any advice?

I have also noticed Freelancer, they seem to have a lot more Zen Cart developers registered than oDesk/Elance. Does anyone have any advice / experience of that site?

Any comments on this is hugely appreciated. Cheers.

My humble and personal recommendation, and in one word... Lat9.

14 Oct 2013, 2:49 PM
#3
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

Thanks for that, I have tried to hire the help of several well known ZC contributes for a variety of tasks. But most PM's either go un-answered or the job is turned down or worse, the price they quote is ridiculously expensive :(

I have only been successful 3x in hiring 'well respected' ZC devs from this forum, first job went well and without a hitch, the second job was (IMHO) done half heatedly, and i was massively disappointed, but I paid them proforma via paypal so I was screwed really, and the third job never got finished! Again a proforma payment, luckily that payment was reversed by PayPal after some effort and luckily for that dev, he lives in a different country as I would of happily driven the length of the UK to sort him out personally.

So never again will I hire via that method!

14 Oct 2013, 5:28 PM
#4
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

Sad but true, finding a developer with high self-imposed standards is very frustratingly difficult (now that Ceon is no longer with us).

Reminds me of a saying we had long ago when I used to live in South Africa, if you had a problem with your car...
"you can fix it yourself or take it to a garage... and then fix it yourself".

14 Oct 2013, 5:31 PM
#5
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

ray-the-otter:

Thanks for that, I have tried to hire the help of several well known ZC contributes for a variety of tasks. But most PM's either go un-answered or the job is turned down or worse, the price they quote is ridiculously expensive :(

I have only been successful 3x in hiring 'well respected' ZC devs from this forum, first job went well and without a hitch, the second job was (IMHO) done half heatedly, and i was massively disappointed, but I paid them proforma via paypal so I was screwed really, and the third job never got finished! Again a proforma payment, luckily that payment was reversed by PayPal after some effort and luckily for that dev, he lives in a different country as I would of happily driven the length of the UK to sort him out personally.

So never again will I hire via that method!

Yeah that's not cool is it.
Well as I say, my choice is Lat9, she was impeccable.

15 Oct 2013, 9:35 AM
#6
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

yes... I miss Conor... he was the fella I outsourced to and it all went brilliantly.. But he was starting to get too ill for my other jobs as he coming out of remission for a third time, hence me using others. We had some good weekly craic via emails.. top fella who went far too soon!

15 Oct 2013, 4:47 PM
#7
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

picandnix:

My humble and personal recommendation, and in one word... Lat9.

picandnix:

Yeah that's not cool is it.
Well as I say, my choice is Lat9, she was impeccable.

Nods in agreement.. Lat9 rocks!!! She is all that and a BIG OLD bag o' chips!!!:laugh: Plus I have a real soft spot for chick developers.. :smile: In my day job, there are SO FEW of us chicks in IT, let alone developers.. So she gets EXTRA gravy in my book!!

To answer the OP, while I know that oDesk and Freelancer (formerly vWorker) do have some very talented and honorable developers (some even from this forum), my experience with both has been hit and miss.

I had ONE dev on vWorker who created two small custom forms for me without a hitch, and I would hire him again for SMALL jobs, but IMHO he doesn't have the kind of skill at the level that Lat9 has so I could never use him for anything more than small jobs.

However, I also had a terrible experience with a developer on vWorker who DID NOT read my spec in full and when he realized the full scope of the project, he tried to deliver sub-standard code and claimed that everything else was out of scope. When I rejected his half-a$$ed code, and insisted that he deliver code to match my spec, he tried to back out of the work because he felt that he underbid the job. This all ended in a very NASTY and protracted vWorker mediation.. (fortunately vWorker escrows funds so devs do not get paid until the dev manager approves the work and releases the funds) He tried to extricate himself from the job first by saying that I failed to provide the full scope of the work, then later he claimed that I didn't fill out the vWorker scope form correctly.. vWorker's mediator rejected both of his claims, and he was forced to finish the work or forfeit the escrowed funds. He finished the work, but it took some teeth pulling, and in the end I ended up saving his a$$ when the mediator decided to reject his effort to finish the work.. I got the code, but it was the LAST time I used vWorker, and that developer has since been suspended..

I have had WORSE experiences at oDesk.. Including developers who CLEARLY did not read the spec, and delivered one piece of buggy code after another that did NOT follow the spec.. Then there was the developer who loaded the code to my dev server for testing, but REFUSED to deliver a properly packaged add-on when the development/testing was done.. After some teeth pulling he finally at least gave me a list of new and modified files along with the DB changes.. Leaving ME to have to extract/create the module package myself. (and YES he expected that he should be paid in FULL for this..)

The ONLY good thing that came out of oDesk for me was a cool freelance graphics guy named Sam.. (he re-designed my logo and did a bunch of graphics work for a few of my clients).

As a Business Analyst/Project Manager I have worked with many outside developers before, but by experience with these freelancer sites has left a very BAD taste in my mouth.. It has not been ANYTHING like working with the developers I deal with in my day job. IMHO, there are integrity issues with LOTS of these developers.. Hard to weed out the bad from the good IMHO because there is such a proliferation of BAD on many of these sites..

My other advice is this.. BEWARE of cheap development work.. GOOD developers are NOT going to be CHEAP.. that's just a fact, and one I know WELL from my day job.. A QUALITY module that requires 8-12 hours of development is NOT going to cost $200.. So beware when someone offers to develop something that requires some serious level of effort for next to nothing..

16 Oct 2013, 8:32 AM
#8
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

Diva, thank you! I could not of asked for a better response! Finding good trusty worthy and capable dev's seems to be a game of Russian Roulette.

I have used 99designs, logoarena and logotournament to out source graphic works to, all with great success. By success I mean that after filtering through the 100's of crap entries I get some really good work produced and I dont pay until I am 100% happy. Which is why I am thinking of using these other types of 'freelancing sites', the fact my money is protected until I get what I am happy with is a good safety-net from all the c**ts out there just waiting to rip you off!

I would love to use folks from this community, but the days of paying proforma are well over!

I no doubt will get burned again... but what can i do?

I would love the luxury of being able to sit and learn PHP etc, but more and more of my time is taken up by the actual running of the business, packing orders, marketing etc.. And when I get home I want to spend the evening with the wife and daughter and not have my head buried in a laptop swearing because I am crap lol

16 Oct 2013, 5:27 PM
#9
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

ray-the-otter:

Diva, thank you! I could not of asked for a better response! Finding good trusty worthy and capable dev's seems to be a game of Russian Roulette.

I have used 99designs, logoarena and logotournament to out source graphic works to, all with great success. By success I mean that after filtering through the 100's of crap entries I get some really good work produced and I dont pay until I am 100% happy. Which is why I am thinking of using these other types of 'freelancing sites', the fact my money is protected until I get what I am happy with is a good safety-net from all the c**ts out there just waiting to rip you off!

I would love to use folks from this community, but the days of paying proforma are well over!

I no doubt will get burned again... but what can i do?

I would love the luxury of being able to sit and learn PHP etc, but more and more of my time is taken up by the actual running of the business, packing orders, marketing etc.. And when I get home I want to spend the evening with the wife and daughter and not have my head buried in a laptop swearing because I am crap lol

You're welcome.. I like 99 Designs as well. I've used them for two clients for template designs to great success.. The "contest/competition" method works well and get's you to best of the best IMHO.. But graphic design and code development are not the same animals.. Neither are the folks who provide these kinds of services..

I personally would never pay upfront IN FULL for code unless I know the developer well, but I do understand FIRST HAND why a developer would want at least a PARTIAL payment upfront. Depending on the cost of the work I am being asked to do, I too may require at least a partial payment upfront.. I've only ad ONE person who had an issue with this, and I regretfully had to let him know that I could NOT work with him.. So I don't have an issue with the payment aspect especially when I'm working with a developer that I KNOW. I have employed the services of experienced devs from this forum, and because I had a "relationship" established with them, I wasn't always asked to pay upfront in part or in full, but if I had been asked for an upfront payment I would have no issue with it..

I wouldn't hold my breath thinking that these freelance sites will yield "better" results just because your money is protected.. Time is just as valuable as money.. I don't like wasting EITHER.. Even with my payment protected, as these freelance sites do, this isn't enough. I have DEADLINES to adhere to, client expectations to meet, and even if my money is protected, my time is still wasted, and my project is delayed.. Having to start over soliciting for developers after one fails to complete a project on time, to spec, or fails to deliver quality code is STILL not a good thing.. The only consolation in this case is that I didn't lose any money.. but it's a SMALL consolation as this kind of cancellation puts me behind schedule..

I do wish you luck! :smile:

17 Oct 2013, 12:44 PM
#10
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

I am lucky in one respect that most of the Zen Cart and Prestashop websites I manage/run are my own stores selling my own items, the others that do not belong to me I simply set up for friends of friends and I host, apply very basic changes etc, so I don't have client deadlines to met

I see freelancer have adopted the "contest/competition" for coding/development work too...... have not really investigated it, but an seems interesting concept.

17 Oct 2013, 3:33 PM
#11
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

ray-the-otter:

I am lucky in one respect that most of the Zen Cart and Prestashop websites I manage/run are my own stores selling my own items, the others that do not belong to me I simply set up for friends of friends and I host, apply very basic changes etc, so I don't have client deadlines to met

I see freelancer have adopted the "contest/competition" for coding/development work too...... have not really investigated it, but an seems interesting concept. Right.. but not all the custom development I've commissioned has necessarily been tied to a client.. And client or no client, my time is valuable and I don't like it wasted.

After 17 plus years working in software development, I don't see any scenario where a contest is an effective method to evaluate custom software.. There's just no way to effectively test software using a contest scenario. In my opinion it's inefficient and this inefficiency ultimately would waste my time.. just as important as getting what I paid for not wasting my time is equally important

But if you feel it's something you'd be comfortable with by all means I say go for it..

18 Oct 2013, 2:40 PM
#12
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

No, but then im used to having my time wasted by all aspects of business.. (suppliers, carriers, customers, developers lol)

I won't run a competition, but 200-300 USD is a far lower loss than what i have already lost from direct contact of devs here... well worth a punt

18 Oct 2013, 4:56 PM
#13
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

ray-the-otter:

No, but then im used to having my time wasted by all aspects of business.. (suppliers, carriers, customers, developers lol)

I won't run a competition, but 200-300 USD is a far lower loss than what i have already lost from direct contact of devs here... well worth a punt
Well remember custom development costs are truly based on level of effort.. so while you might have a budget of $X.XX, the job may actually cost more based on the required level of effort.. I have the benefit of my 17+ years of experience to draw from to guage when an estimate makes sense. However, for folks who don't have this kind of background they may not know right away when the estimate is reasonable or on the flip side when the estimate is "too cheap"... Socost is but one measurement that you should use when hiring for custom dev work.. You need to also beware that there are crap coders out there who lack skills, but bid on jobs hoping that the cheap bid will win the work..

23 Oct 2013, 1:21 PM
#14
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Re: Feedback/Advice on Outsourcing development (add-ons & modifications)

well i never base contracts on price, always on feedback. Found a person with 55 jobs with 54 @5 star rating. Portfolio looks good to...

on another note, RE Mobile template vs responsive template.. an amusing quote from a developer...

"Mobile for speed and better optimization, responsive for comfort and laziness"