obfuscating URL's

While browsing the Zen-Cart forums I can't help to notice that a LOT of people coming to seek help here either fail to provide a link to their site or they'll obfuscate it in one way or another.

I can appreciate that no one wants to post a link to a broken site, but it should also be assumed that it isn't going to remain broken, so what is the harm in posting it?

I am also under the impression that many people don't like to post the URL for some kind of misguided 'privacy' reason. My response to this is, what real purpose for having a 'private' store?

On many occasions when trying to help people I (and I'm sure some others) will view the 'forum posts' history of the persons asking for help to see if I/we can identify their store from previous posts they've made. Why make it hard for us to help you?

Anyway, I'm making these comments in this forum because it seems quite apt. Most people know that the more links there are to your site(s), the higher the ranking they receive in the search engines. It is like a feedback mechanism that lets the SE's know how many people find something useful about your site.

Now here's the best part. These forums are regularly crawled and indexed by the SE's, which means that by posting the link to your site, even though you are here seeking help, you are actually advertising and promoting your own store and actually giving it a boost in the rankings.

This is a good thing, so why do so many people seem to go out of their way to obfuscate their URL when seeking help when there is no valid reason (that I can think of) to do so?

OK, so you are here because you are having a problem of one sort or another, but while your here, why not make it easy for us to help you, and in the process gain the free advertising that these forums afford?

I'm not suggesting anyone spam the forums with their URL's, but why waste the opportunity to make good of a bad situation?

Thoughts?

Cheers
RodG

I've wondered about that, too. In many cases, I suspect that the questioner isn't the site owner, but a Web designer who doesn't want his 'client' to know he's having trouble with Zencart, possibly having described himself to said client as a Zencart 'expert'.

Don't get me started on 'Web designers' who come here asking for help for a 'client's' site who have never heard of FTP.

I was always fearful that if there was to become some new hack known, all a hacker would have to do is come here and find plenty of "target" sites.

fred

I've generally thought it was expected to be done as a result of the information in the posting guide tips. Something about the content leads to think that because of the rapid "indexing" that it was a suggestion to not post the site as if that would actually be a problem not a benefit.

Admittedly the additional "unnecessary" trafficof the auto systems also has been a concern/thought. Sure have the ability to block installed, but even then which should and which shouldn't generally speaking.

Fred22:

I was always fearful that if there was to become some new hack known, all a hacker would have to do is come here and find plenty of "target" sites.

This is a very good point, and to the best of my knowledge the forums dealing with hacks has been configured to disallow crawling/indexing by the search engines to mitigate this scenario.

The other forums don't have this restriction because they are essentially 'help' pages, and having them indexed is useful for those seeking help but for whatever reason don't know about these forums..
Essentially, even if a new hack is known, the hackers are more likely to search Google for vulnerable sites than come here only to find a lesser number of potential targets.

Thanks for the input though.

Cheers
RodG

mc12345678:

I've generally thought it was expected to be done as a result of the information in the posting guide tips. Something about the content leads to think that because of the rapid "indexing"

This is true, and this is actually the point I'm trying to make in this forum/thread. It is an excellent way for the SE's to discover your/our sites. Rapid indexing is almost universally considered to be a good thing.

mc12345678:

that it was a suggestion to not post the site as if that would actually be a problem not a benefit.

This is the thing I'm trying to figure out... WHY do many people consider it be a problem?

The actual text reads:
"NOTE: Search engines index this Zen Cart® support site very quickly. Posting your URL will cause your site and your post to show up in search engines. If you want to prevent that, put spaces between each letter of the domain name in your URL".

I don't see this as implying that it is a bad thing, or as being detrimental in any way. To me it reads like it is a personal choice of the postee, and I'm trying to get some feedback as to why people don't want their posts (and ultimately their sites) to be indexed.

My own personal view on this is pretty much the same that stevesh stated, its the so called 'experts' that don't wish their customers to know they aren't as 'expert' as they imply. In some ways I can appreciate and even accept this as a valid reason, but in the other hand, the 'real' experts never seem to have a problem acknowledging their limitations and don't have a problem seeking help and/or advising their clients that they need to research the solution to any given problem.

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

Cheers
RodG

This is the thing I'm trying to figure out... WHY do many people consider it be a problem?

Call me paranoid or overly concerned but the one time that I posted a valid link, the increase in hacking attempts increased within minutes. AND it wasn't the normal attempts that are seen many times per day, it was different code. I also changed the name to the admin folder in the post to /mytopsecretadminfolder/ WOW, the attempts to that particular folder, which did not exist, also increased dramatically and almost instantly.

It is one thing to accept the routing troublemaking attempts.
It is another thing to invite the more serious troublemaking attempts.

All the fish in this barrel use the same, known code making finding and catching fish much easier than if trolling the entire ocean. Especially when a person posts a link and identifies their version known to have issues.

Also, I don't want a competitor putting in a search for our sites and seeing links here thereby giving them info about the software we use that is consistently kicking their bum in the rankings and from a usability standpoint. Many of our competitors are smaller sites that use waaaaayyyyy inferior platforms, so why show them what we are using? We're pulling in over 7 figures a year in sales and I certainly don't want to jeopardize that in any way!

RixStix:

Call me paranoid.

Nah, that's not being paranoid, they really are out to get you/us.

FWIW though (and I've mentioned this a number of times before) I actually find the hacking attempts to be useful. In fact I depend on them because

1. it gives me confidence that my site(s) are still secure. I get more paranoid if I don't get alerted of at least 50 hack attempts per day.

2. I get early warnings about new attacks and exploits, even those that have nothing to do with ZenCart.

3. It keeps me on my toes. I never assume that all of our sites are 100% secure (which can be a 'fatal' mistake for anyone running a website).

And my last comment about this is, if you are that paranoid about hackers that you'll never post your store URL's in these forums, then you should be MORE paranoid that your site/store can be found in google, or any other search engine, because the hackers will still find more vulnerable site via those SE's than via these forums... It may be a bigger ocean, but that ocean contains far more fish that are just as easy to catch.

No one should fear hack attempts resulting from well known exploits (as long as your sites are kept up to date).

I don't consider this to be a good reason to negate the benefits from having a site URL posted in these forums (the forum related to hack attempts is a somewhat different ballgame, because this is where information about new hacks and exploits are discussed/shared, and as mentioned elsewhere, those forums are configured to disallow search engines).

Thank for the feedback.

Cheers
RodG

lankeeyankee:

Also, I don't want a competitor putting in a search for our sites and seeing links here thereby giving them info about the software we use that is consistently kicking their bum in the rankings and from a usability standpoint. Many of our competitors are smaller sites that use waaaaayyyyy inferior platforms, so why show them what we are using? We're pulling in over 7 figures a year in sales and I certainly don't want to jeopardize that in any way!

I have to say, this is actually quite a good reason, within reason.

What I don't like about this though is that even though it may give the competition a good reason to jump ship and come over to ZenCart, it is actually detrimental to ZenCart itself. ZenCart, like any other software will either thrive or die based on its popularity. In the long term, isn't it best that we encourage even more ZenCart users, rather than keeping it a secret?

I for one will never even consider removing the "Powered by ZenCart" in our store footers. I'm proud to be ZenCart supporter/user, and if this encourages others to also use ZenCart I think it is a very good thing.

Cheers
RodG

stevesh:

I've wondered about that, too. In many cases, I suspect that the questioner isn't the site owner, but a Web designer who doesn't want his 'client' to know he's having trouble with Zencart, possibly having described himself to said client as a Zencart 'expert'.and there may be some who are doing just that.. but not all web designers who come here to ask questions are this way.. Speaking for myself, I have no issue coming here to ask questions from one of the best sources of information I know of when it comes to Zen Cart. I also have never tried to hide the fact that I use this forum as a resource from my client's when I do. This is because I recognized LONG ago that I cannot know EVERYTHING. i DO know that I don't always have to know everything to solve a business problem as long as I know what resources I need to resolve the issue and know how to marshall those resources..

RodG:

"NOTE: Search engines index this Zen Cart® support site very quickly. Posting your URL will cause your site and your post to show up in search engines. If you want to prevent that, put spaces between each letter of the domain name in your URL".
My answer is simple.. I just DON'T want my client's site's to be indexed from here.. Personal choice.. With one of my client's this is actually at his request..

However, I opt for means to obfuscate the link that doesn't require some secret decoder ring to decode http://yourdomain(dot)com is sufficient to provide my URL while not indexing the site from this forum.. I'll admit that I usually ignore URLs posted which are obfuscated and end up looking like this: h t t p : // y o u r d o m a i n.com.. I don't have time to put together a URL puzzle..:laugh:

DivaVocals:

My answer is simple.. I just DON'T want my client's site's to be indexed from here.. Personal choice..

It's always a personal choice, but I'm still not understanding why you (and others) think that its not a good idea to take advantage of the benefits it brings?

Free advertising is a good thing, isn't it? :dontgetit

Cheers
RodG

RodG:

It's always a personal choice, but I'm still not understanding why you (and others) think that its not a good idea to take advantage of the benefits it brings?

Free advertising is a good thing, isn't it? :dontgetit

Cheers
RodG
Most of my clients don't see it as free advertising.. and I'm not sure I do either.. Not sure I see how a mineral makeup site would benefit from being indexed here?? or a site that sells stainless steel table legs?? How is being indexed HERE equating to SALES?? (which is what I assume you mean that free advertising would lead to)

DivaVocals:

How is being indexed HERE equating to SALES?

It isn't the "indexed here" that provides the benefits, and I've never stated anything to this effect.
If the decision to not post the store URL's is based on the assumption that it serves no benefit and won't help increase sales then it is probably worth reconsidering.
The real benefits are a lot more subtle and significant than that, and it is based on the fact that the more links to a given site there are, the higher the ranking it will receive in the search engines, and it is these higher rankings that will ultimately boost sales.
The fact that the links themselves come from these forums is an insignificant factor. The important thing is that they exist.
Using the example of a "mineral makeup" site, if we assume the site link was posted here and a potential customer searches for "mineral makeup" they will probably need to go to page umpteen in the SE before they find the link/reference to post in this forum, but the actual store/site itself will gravitate towards the 1st page in the SE's based on the fact that it now has an additional link to it (admittedly one additional link probably isn't going to change much, but when competition for top spot in the SE's is so fierce every little bit helps.

Cheers
RodG

RodG:

It isn't the "indexed here" that provides the benefits, and I've never stated anything to this effect.
If the decision to not post the store URL's is based on the assumption that it serves no benefit and won't help increase sales then it is probably worth reconsidering.
The real benefits are a lot more subtle and significant than that, and it is based on the fact that the more links to a given site there are, the higher the ranking it will receive in the search engines, and it is these higher rankings that will ultimately boost sales.
The fact that the links themselves come from these forums is an insignificant factor. The important thing is that they exist.
Using the example of a "mineral makeup" site, if we assume the site link was posted here and a potential customer searches for "mineral makeup" they will probably need to go to page umpteen in the SE before they find the link/reference to post in this forum, but the actual store/site itself will gravitate towards the 1st page in the SE's based on the fact that it now has an additional link to it (admittedly one additional link probably isn't going to change much, but when competition for top spot in the SE's is so fierce every little bit helps.

Cheers
RodG
Understood.. Most of my clients still prefer their site not to be "found" that way.. shrug

DivaVocals:

Understood.. Most of my clients still prefer their site not to be "found" that way.. shrug

There's also a very good chance that even if the store URL is posted in the forums it may not even show up in a Google, etc search anyway. For example, if the store selling "mineral makeup" was "www.carols-cosmetics.abc" and the Google search was for "mineral makeup" the forum won't appear anywhere in the search results because there's no match. One would assume that the carols-cosmetics site does contain the search query though so even though it's been given a boost just by having the URL posted here no one will ever know.
Of course, if the search query was for "carols cosmetics" that's another matter, but a potential customer isn't going to search for that anyway as it implies they already know that carol sells cosmetics so all they will be looking for is a link to carols site. :-)
Cheers
RodG

DivaVocals:

Understood.. Most of my clients still prefer their site not to be "found" that way.. shrug
I just found myself wondering how these conversations went.
Client : How can I boost my SE rankings?
Developer: You need lots of good content and lots of links to your site.
Client : Where should I post these links?
Developer : Facebook.
Client : ok
Developer: Twitter
Client : ok
Developer : In my showcase of stores I've worked on.
Client : ok
Developer :In the zencart showcase.
Client : Yeah, ok.
Developer : In the Zencart support forums.
Client : No, not there.
Developer: Why not there?
Client : I don't want my site to be found there.

Cheers
RodG (still totally baffled at the logic)

RodG:

I just found myself wondering how these conversations went.
Client : How can I boost my SE rankings?
Developer: You need lots of good content and lots of links to your site.
Client : Where should I post these links?
Developer : Facebook.
Client : ok
Developer: Twitter
Client : ok
Developer : In my showcase of stores I've worked on.
Client : ok
Developer :In the zencart showcase.
Client : Yeah, ok.
Developer : In the Zencart support forums.
Client : No, not there.
Developer: Why not there?
Client : I don't want my site to be found there.

Cheers
RodG (still totally baffled at the logic)
Right.. Most of my client's have expressed a PREFERENCE that I not post their URLs here without obfuscating them.. so I obfuscate their URLS when I do post their URLs here.. it's a preference, and so it's in the no BIG deal category for me and them.. doesn't have to be any logic to it beyond they JUST DON'T WANT their URLs posted here without obfuscating the link.. Hasn't hurt ANY of these clients not one bit to make that choice, and I suspect that the same will be found true for others..

But carry on..

DivaVocals:

Hasn't hurt ANY of these clients not one bit to make that choice, and I suspect that the same will be found true for others..

But carry on..

The thing is it doesn't help them either (and it could).
I have noted that this isn't your personal preference though, and that like most of us that give more support than we ask for, we don't have any issues with including the URL to our own sites when posting to the forums.

Cheers
RodG

RodG:

The thing is it doesn't help them either (and it could).I'm sure.. but they are doing alright without the extra help which is why I don't push the point..:smile:
RodG:

I have noted that this isn't your personal preference though, and that like most of us that give more support than we ask for, we don't have any issues with including the URL to our own sites when posting to the forums.Nope not at all..