Arrange Product Listing Order - Better Method - like on Etsy

I will refer you to this post made some time back in Future Zen Cart Versions Wishlist thread https://www.zen-cart.com/showthread.php?215099-Re-arrange-store-i-e-change-product-listing-order (maybe read this post first then go to the previous post)

There is a Question after the preamble :smile:

Am loving Zen Cart but the one thing that I feel is missing is the ability to rearrange the order of items in your store to best present what you want the customer to see when they initially visit the store - impact. Engaging the customer from the beginning is critical in giving the warm and fuzzy feeling to encourage them to go deeper into your store, stay longer and be more inclined to purchase. Hence it makes sense to put your best, most liked, most attention getting products on the first couple of pages. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do in Zen Cart (see post referred to above for more detail / comment on this)

For the very same products in a given Zen Cart website that I also have an Etsy store (both ranking on page 1 of Google search for their primary search term(s), the Etsy shop further down the same results page) I get much better visitor engagement from the Etsy shop than the website and more orders (more page views, listing views and time on site by a factor of about double) using the very same images etc. (this is consistent across 3 websites and 3 corresponding mirror imaged Etsy shops). The primary reason in my view (among a number of factors) is that in Etsy I can arrange the products on the pages as I see fit with the click of the mouse, so I can move the attention getting products to the first few pages, which I do regularly.

QUESTION - does anyone know of an available program that does what the Etsy program does that could be adapted to Zen Cart??

I did not get any replies to the post to the suggestions thread however I have no doubt that such a feature would be welcomed by many Zenners - it is just like a window dresser changing the front of the store to entice customers to come in, right?

cheers, Mike

One can already assign to a product or group of products a Sort Order in the admin

kobra:

One can already assign to a product or group of products a Sort Order in the admin

kobra - thanks for the response - maybe read this post referenced for some more explanation (https://www.zen-cart.com/showthread.php?215099-Re-arrange-store-i-e-change-product-listing-order).

In short you are correct but the flexibility doesn't exist to arrange / re-arrange as I or anyone would like, i.e. the sort system relies on numbers restricted to numeric, alpha numeric doesn't work, double digits also doesn't work. So once an item is assigned a numeric sort it then sorts within that sort by alpha sort. When you get to 200 plus items as is my case and you want to change the order of presentation in the first few pages it is an absolute nightmare going through and changing numeric order of what could be 60 plus items (assuming 20 items per page and wanting to re-arrange 3 pages) - every time you want to 'refresh' the appearance of your store listings - multiply that by a number of websites and there is no time left for anything else. So I change 60 products to sort zero for example (not considering - 'negative' numbers at this stage although I have reverted to actually doing that) the sort is then done alphabetically within that numeric sort so the possibility is that my best items that I want on page 1 could still be showing on page 3 which defeats the purpose of the exercise. If you have high rates of return visitors, as I do and no doubt many other Zenners do, then it is imperative that they see a 'different' shop each time they visit.

I already spend hours trying to get something near what I would like but it is becoming harder and harder to find the time.

Zen Cart features like the Tabbed front page with New, Featured and Specials products is good but it does not attract the same number of clicks as the main category of products - those features are / can be shown in side boxes anyway.

Your response is probably why I did not get any responses at all when I first put this in the Wishlist section, likely as it was dismissed in the same vein as your response - problem with today with people being so busy is that do not take the time to read, they use abbreviated reading and assumptive approaches.

Etsy does it because it works for their shop owners and their customers, my stats go some way to proving that in addition to quantifiable high volume interaction for products strategically placed. Just because Etsy does it doesn't mean that Zen Cart should do it but what it does mean is that those in Zen Cart that make decisions about what gets included in updated versions should at least appraise it and then make the decision. Maybe it is too complex (maybe as some ZC developers (add-on contributors) to offer comment on how difficult it may or may not be to either make an add-on and then even incorporate it into a future version of ZC. Maybe the program is proprietary to Etsy, don't know.

I am hoping a reasonable number of Zenners will read this thread just to see what comments are made to see if I am a lone wolf or whether there is some support for the suggestion - either way I urge you to take a look.

cheers, Mike

If you do not have an Etsy shop maybe ask a friend who does have one to show you what the 'rearrange shop' facility can do - it is marvelous.

Have you looked at easy populate - I think that one could change the sort order en mass by using it

https://www.zen-cart.com/showthread.php?190417-EasyPopulate-4-0-Support-Thread

To keep on the same vein as the above discussion, may I suggest not discrediting kobra's second suggestion as a result of the first not "meeting" your needs...

In reading both "discussions" (threads), it does appear that what you want to do is completely within the ease and control of the store owner. Yes it may take a little more effort/code to do so up front, but generally speaking it is all there already. So, here's what I see:

1. Want a way to position content in the order desired: (sort order is available for both categories and for product within a category though not sure ATM how linked product sort order plays among various categories).
2. Apparently using TPP or similar which puts the featrued, specials, and new options in a separate tab rather than "in the main screen". If that is the case and is undesirable, then change it...
3. Because of the large quantity of product involved among multiple store, individual navigation for each product is time consuming. And to get around sme form of "reshuffling" have resorted to usng negative numbers to "regain" control.

First I believe there are issues with using negative numbers that are documented in the forum, so I would recommend redoing your numbering to base off of a positive number for the lowest value(s).
Would suggest (if not already doing) to use numbers in "multiples" of say 10 or 100 so that product can be relatively quickly moved in a pinch, and then "properly" sequenced periodically as part of site maintenance.
EP4 as suggested offers the ability for you to sit at your computer, modify the data to be uploaded to address product and category "sorting" and then to import the applicable data to cause the desired visible effect...
I also thought there was a random option for some of that data so can get the new "look" on each visit/page load...

I'd say this about the comparison. Seems to me that talking about the same result but through different means... One is visual (etsy) the other is through understanding of the setup and applying the correct values... (36 product per page, if I want this item on the first row of the second page then it needs to be 37th in line.)

The next thing usually in such a discussion is what value do you place on having the visual version of the solution as compared to the slightly more manual version and does that value outweigh the expense of translating to the visual version... Anything is possble, it just may not be easy. Or done exactly the way that is originally desired...

mc12345678:

To keep on the same vein as the above discussion, may I suggest not discrediting kobra's second suggestion as a result of the first not "meeting" your needs...

Thanks for your response MC - not sure what you mean by the above - I do not 'dismiss' any input I get from the forum :) - I may not agree with some but that is constructive at times.

In reading both "discussions" (threads), it does appear that what you want to do is completely within the ease and control of the store owner. Yes it may take a little more effort/code to do so up front, but generally speaking it is all there already. So, here's what I see:

1. Want a way to position content in the order desired: (sort order is available for both categories and for product within a category though not sure ATM how linked product sort order plays among various categories).
2. Apparently using TPP or similar which puts the featrued, specials, and new options in a separate tab rather than "in the main screen". If that is the case and is undesirable, then change it...
3. Because of the large quantity of product involved among multiple store, individual navigation for each product is time consuming. And to get around sme form of "reshuffling" have resorted to usng negative numbers to "regain" control.

First I believe there are issues with using negative numbers that are documented in the forum, so I would recommend redoing your numbering to base off of a positive number for the lowest value(s).
Would suggest (if not already doing) to use numbers in "multiples" of say 10 or 100 so that product can be relatively quickly moved in a pinch, and then "properly" sequenced periodically as part of site maintenance.
EP4 as suggested offers the ability for you to sit at your computer, modify the data to be uploaded to address product and category "sorting" and then to import the applicable data to cause the desired visible effect...
I also thought there was a random option for some of that data so can get the new "look" on each visit/page load...

I'd say this about the comparison. Seems to me that talking about the same result but through different means... One is visual (etsy) the other is through understanding of the setup and applying the correct values... (36 product per page, if I want this item on the first row of the second page then it needs to be 37th in line.)

The next thing usually in such a discussion is what value do you place on having the visual version of the solution as compared to the slightly more manual version and does that value outweigh the expense of translating to the visual version... Anything is possble, it just may not be easy. Or done exactly the way that is originally desired...

I am not sure that you understand the complexity of the existing methods and lack of flexibility. Yes, yes the existing facilities allow changing sort order however they are far less flexible than the system used in Etsy. As I have suggested previously it is not likely that you or anyone else will be able to understand until such time as you 'experience' the facility within Etsy. Respectfully, it is appears that neither you nor kobra have shops in Etsy so therefore have not experienced their 'rearrange shop' facility - again respectfully I urge you to have a look at it, this will require you to know someone who does have a shop that you can sit down with and have them show you, or if you like I am happy to PM you with access details to one of my shops in Etsy so you can use the facility and get to understand its ease and advantages. I liken it to instructing a young child not to touch the stove because it is hot - they have heard what you have said but do not know what it means until the day they touch the hot stove and feel the pain and then the full meaning of the word 'hot' is fully comprehended.

This is not primarily about code perse, it is about marketing (marketing the code if you like), and this is certainly not an ########## about Zen Cart - it is about putting forward a suggestion to have it appraised - at present there appears to be no interest in appraising it but moreso defending the existing set up within Zen Cart, which is an understandable trait by those responsible for making it the excellent product that it is.

I am not a coder, I do not understand what the complexities may be in a facility such that Etsy has - it may be that it is far too complex for development for use within ZC - if that is the case then so be it. If that is not the case and there is consensus that it may be useful then so be it - but there will not be any consensus unless the facility is 'appraised' and thence understood.

Cheers, Mike

it is about putting forward a suggestion to have it appraised
If this is all you are attempting to do - then I apologize for not understanding and offering solutions

Maybe this would be better left posted in features wishlist versus the general questions

This area is for the developers to read mostly and consider incorporating into future releases

One may or may not receive any replies there

kobra:

If this is all you are attempting to do - then I apologize for not understanding and offering solutions

Maybe this would be better left posted in features wishlist versus the general questions

This area is for the developers to read mostly and consider incorporating into future releases

One may or may not receive any replies there

@shags38... Allow me to say it...

Kobra, unfortunately I believe you just solidified one of shags38's points... That being that attention not provided to the content of the message... The OP of this thread contains a link to an OP that was made in the features wishlist... Some time ago too as I seem to recall reading it and because of it's placement and what I saw as little sales reward for the expected cost, carried on with my other routine(s)...

Anyways, point is that it was posted on the features wishlist as referenced above and no response has been had and no additional amplifying/modified information has been posted to it...

I still say to resolve the current headache of manually modifying the sort order and in particular by using negative numbers which is discouraged in order for parts of the store to actually work as expected/desired that there is a solution available without any additional effort (or money).

kobra:

If this is all you are attempting to do - then I apologize for not understanding and offering solutions

Maybe this would be better left posted in features wishlist versus the general questions

This area is for the developers to read mostly and consider incorporating into future releases

One may or may not receive any replies there

kobra - thanks for the apology, albeit it wasn't necessary. Unfortunately we live in an age where people are so busy they read just like they sms or tweet - abbreviated - very few read a message or document thoroughly, they read what they want to see - I have continual issues with hosts when their tech support people skim through an eTicket, pick out bits that hit them in the face and respond to 'only' that section.

I submitted this to wishlist on 01 November and I referred to that post in this post, first line - problem I see is with no response to the post in the wishlist one doesn't know if it is being read (read thoroughly) (viewed yes, read?) let alone being considered for any future upgrades or at least appraisals .... and at the risk of repeating myself it will never be considered if it isn't appraised and it seems to me that this is unlikely without some wave of support for the idea.

cheers, Mike

mc12345678:

@shags38... Allow me to say it...

Kobra, unfortunately I believe you just solidified one of shags38's points... That being that attention not provided to the content of the message... The OP of this thread contains a link to an OP that was made in the features wishlist... Some time ago too as I seem to recall reading it and because of it's placement and what I saw as little sales reward for the expected cost, carried on with my other routine(s)...

Anyways, point is that it was posted on the features wishlist as referenced above and no response has been had and no additional amplifying/modified information has been posted to it...

I still say to resolve the current headache of manually modifying the sort order and in particular by using negative numbers which is discouraged in order for parts of the store to actually work as expected/desired that there is a solution available without any additional effort (or money).

MC - thanks for your comments (I read this post after replying to kobra - please read that response) - am I reading into your last sentence that you believe that the facility that exists in Etsy can be replicated into Zen Cart without any additional effort (or money)?? - or is it that I am seeing what I want to see? ... or are you indicating some other solution?

cheers, Mike