Developers minimum requiremet before listing plugin

I am still perplexed as to the lack of criteria set for developers to have their plugins listed for download in Zen Cart - I have folders full of 'not appropriate to my needs' plugins primarily because the description of what the plugin does, how it does it and the advantages of it are in many case just not there, certainly not in anywhere enough detail for the average Joe to ascertain whether it is an appropriate plugin for their needs, or if in fact it will add any advantage at all to the current efficiency of the existing site. It is an absolute minefield.

I have over a period of years downloaded and installed plugins that I regret having done because they screwed up the ZC functionality or the functionality of a an existing plugin that was working fine. (This aspect is I suppose up to the committee to 'test' before approving).

I have suggested this before and it was responded to in the manner of yes we are looking at tightening things up in this area. Some of the descriptions of what a plugin does are simply pathetic - unless you were the developer or a code nerd you would have little or no idea what its objective was and what that objective actually meant - just that the brief description highlights - 'you really need this'.

Then on downloading and reading the 'read me' it also lacks detail, as do the installation instructions.

IMHO there should be a minimum criteria, a form sent to the developer, that insists on minimum standards of understandable descriptions of the who , how, where, why, what etc. Additionally there should be a link to a site using the add-on that shows its functionality on a working site or at least a demo site - this should be mandatory, a minimum requirement, as should installation instructions that can be followed 'simply' by the average Joe, follow the bouncing ball. It is obvious that those who approve these add-ons understand the jargon, the coding paths and other technical stuff so they see the instructions as being OK - why not promulgate the instructions to a 'beta' team of volunteers for comment, not on the plugin itself but of the description of functionality and the ease of following the install instructions (without actually installing it).

At present I rely on looking at who wrote it and the number of downloads as a guide to whether I should entertain a plugin and that process has let me down a few times anyway.

Food for thought (again)

cheers,
Mike

shags38:

I am still perplexed as to the lack of criteria set for developers to have their plugins listed for download in Zen Cart - I have folders full of 'not appropriate to my needs' plugins primarily because the description of what the plugin does, how it does it and the advantages of it are in many case just not there, certainly not in anywhere enough detail for the average Joe to ascertain whether it is an appropriate plugin for their needs, or if in fact it will add any advantage at all to the current efficiency of the existing site. It is an absolute minefield.

I too recently cleaned out a bucket full of useless mods, main reason being that the description / how-to etc was lacking detail or confusing. So, I agree, you are not alone.

shags38:

Then on downloading and reading the 'read me' it also lacks detail, as do the installation instructions.

.... which IMHO is the most important bit.

shags38:

IMHO there should be a minimum criteria, a form sent to the developer, that insists on minimum standards of understandable descriptions of the who , how, where, why, what etc. Additionally there should be a link to a site using the add-on that shows its functionality on a working site or at least a demo site - this should be mandatory, a minimum requirement, as should installation instructions that can be followed 'simply' by the average Joe, follow the bouncing ball. It is obvious that those who approve these add-ons understand the jargon, the coding paths and other technical stuff so they see the instructions as being OK - why not promulgate the instructions to a 'beta' team of volunteers for comment, not on the plugin itself but of the description of functionality and the ease of following the install instructions (without actually installing it).

Sadly not everyone has the time or server space to create a demo site. Absolutely, it is desirable to have something like this but it is not always feasible. Many of the plugins are developed out of necessity, sometimes even under time pressure due to looming manufacturer restriction / requirements. This happened to me when I constructed CSAR (Category Specific Access Restriction), I had to get that show on the road quick smart or face closing one of my stores down. Over a period of time CSAR was refined with better instructions and some bug fixes whilst keeping it up to scratch to cope / comply with ZC code changes in a new ZC version. Surely, I could have kept it under wraps for my personal use only, but I thought that other fellow Zenners could benefit from it.

shags38:

At present I rely on looking at who wrote it and the number of downloads as a guide to whether I should entertain a plugin and that process has let me down a few times anyway.

Same here. OTOH many mods which have been around since Moby D. was a sardine had code upgrades but nobody ever bothered to dolly up the readme file.

Well written Mike - hopefully your post triggers stricter criteria for the submission of new mods.

My 5 cents for what it's worth.

I agree.

Having a section titled "Plugins" as part of the Zen Cart site misleads people into thinking they are actually plugins and have been subjected to the same strict quality control as the rest of the cart. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Almost nothing is plugin apart from language packs. Caveat emptor.

While many people mash up code to get what they want and think this would be nice for others to use, very few have the time or inclination to clean up their code, document it, and test the install on a vanilla store and write instructions, to ensure it is not your-own-site-specific and installs smoothly for others, before submitting it. A lot of work for a bit of a hack. Something I have tried to do in the past but I don't have the time to submit all the hacks I have done cleaned up like this.

If the criteria was a strict as it should be, there would be few contributions available.

At least, the "Plugins" section should have a serious disclaimer shouting naive/new users in the face about the reality of the situation and every contribution MUST have a support thread and you MUST read it before deciding to try it out out. Common sense.

Anyone who dumps downloaded code from the Plugins straight into their production shop will be offline pretty quick.
My 11th commandment: "Thou shalt try out everything on a test server, always, period."

Anything else is not taking your business seriously.

torvista:

I agree.

If the criteria was a strict as it should be, there would be few contributions available.

I would agree there would be FEWER contributions available however those not available would likely be those that are not really necessary or very useful to most Zenners generally.

cheers,
Mike

I must admit I very much disagree with this. Although I understand the reasons for requesting higher quality code, you should also look at the other side of the medal. I've contributed several plugins that I made. A LOT of time went into creating the plugins. Then, I had to spend more time to come up with some kind of documentation. Then, I have to spend time supporting the plugin. Well, I don't have to, but I feel like it's my way of giving something back to the community. Now, I don't have that much free time - I need to work and make a living. All of these plugins were submitted by people who were willing to share their efforts and give something to the community FOR FREE. If you don't like the free stuff, you're most welcome to create your own plugins OR hire someone to do it for you.

Demo site? Yeah, I have it for my free plugins. And sometimes I watch my server load hitting peaks because of people exploring it. Do I really need to spend more money and get a better server just so anyone could see a demo before installing it? Or should I allow my site to go down because of that? You're welcome to set up your own test server and install a plugin to see what it does.

Documentation with a "guide for dummies"? So, the fact that I had spent XY hours on something that I'm giving away for free isn't enough, now I should spend another XY hours on explaining how to use FTP or how to merge code in two files? I should probably record a video as well...
There's a HUGE difference between a contribution and a paid plugin. I do expect detailed instructions with a plugin that I had to pay for. But, when I'm getting something for free, I'm happy to be able to get it and I don't ask too many questions... Because I got it for free, I'll invest my own time to figure out what it does, how it works and how to get it installed (or I'll get my wallet out and find a developer).

Required support thread? So, the fact that I gave you something for free, makes me obligated to spend even more time to answer all of your questions about it? And, what is worst, people are so freakin' lazy that they don't even want to TRY finding a solution on their own - they just go to the support thread and ask their questions. Why bother spending time to find an answer when you can spend my time to answer it for you? Just recently, I replied with

please try reading the support thread - all of these questions have been answered already.
This is a reply I got that made me shut down the computer and go out for a walk:
It's right! 62 pages of posts are too much to read!
SERIOUSLY?! Not to mention that the simplest Google search would scream right at you with an answer...
You see - answering the same questions over and over again (because people are just too lazy to try searching before asking) make me want to abandon the thread and stop supporting it. It's all on a voluntary basis so you should at least try not to waste the volunteers time...

Now... If you only knew how many beautiful plugins I have made and have sitting in my personal repository... I'd LOVE to share it with the community and I'm sure there would be people who would really benefit from it, but I don't have the time to write a short description about it, let alone the documentation. Just because of that, I'm keeping it all to myself and nobody else can have it. Isn't that a shame?

Now imagine if you apply even more strict rules for sharing plugins - who's gonna contribute anything? Is there anyone out there willing to spend dozens of hours programming and then a dozen more on writing documentation, then uploading screenshots, then setting up a demo on his own server and then giving it away for free?
If any strict rules were adopted, I'm pretty sure the Plugins section would have a handful of plugins there and you'd be complaining how all the good stuff is commercial. Or, the Plugins section would look something like Opencart's Extensions where you pay 15 bucks just to get an "Out of Stock" button...

I do agree with torvista that there should be a SERIOUS disclaimer so that the new users know these are not official Zen Cart plugins, but instead community contributions. There's a lot of obsolete plugins and junk out there so a well written disclaimer (on top of each plugin's page) should exist simply to let people know what a contribution is and that it is in fact "donated" code by various authors...

There IS a beautiful phrase that will put all of my novel material above into one single line:
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
:smile:

those not available would likely be those that are not really necessary or very useful to most Zenners generally.

I disagree.
Contributions do not exist based on demand nor what the masses deem important, in fact neither does Zen Cart.

Both exist on the whims/interests and goodwill of the developers.

Evidently the originator of any code change thinks that their mod is absolutely essential to his/her site or they would not have done it in the first place. Whether others agree is extremely variable.

Where there is real demand for a mod to overcome the shortcomings of ZC, if you are lucky in has stepped a commercial developer and that code may well be plugin but you wont see in the Plugins section, nor even allowed to be discussed on this site for debatable reasons.

Personally I think it's time this was shaken up with:

• commercial modules discussed, named and shamed to protect the innocent and also make very plain what is lacking in ZC/the masses want.
• the "Plugins" brutally culled, leaving only the well-written ones from reputable contributors standing
• the majority of the current "plugins" reduced to their real status of a set of hacks downloadable from their support thread and so making it plain that all code is potentially dangerous / "as is" and all bets are off. This would encourage people to post their minor code changes quickly with no fuss and so promote discussion and testing in the community etc, all good things.

that's my 10 centimos.

frank18:

Sadly not everyone has the time or server space to create a demo site. Absolutely, it is desirable to have something like this but it is not always feasible. Many of the plugins are developed out of necessity, sometimes even under time pressure due to looming manufacturer restriction / requirements. This happened to me when I constructed CSAR (Category Specific Access Restriction), I had to get that show on the road quick smart or face closing one of my stores down. Over a period of time CSAR was refined with better instructions and some bug fixes whilst keeping it up to scratch to cope / comply with ZC code changes in a new ZC version. Surely, I could have kept it under wraps for my personal use only, but I thought that other fellow Zenners could benefit from it.

I agree that under the circumstances such as you described that it is better to have an add-on than not - however I reckon there could be two categories, no three categories of plugins. The first being 'meets full ZC criteria' (tried and proven with quality documentation and has been 'beta' tested); the second being 'doesn't meet full ZC criteria -USE AT OWN RISK'; and the third being 'PAY FOR USE'.

All categories should meet at least one MANDATORY criteria of a support thread, actually supported by the developer, not simply 'I/We developed it and we encourage the ZC community to support each other ....' as it is with some plugins, ie. developer opts out and leaves others to do the solving of any issues only responding when pressure is applied - this is typical of at least one major contributor in ZC - (I personally had to shame them on their Facebook page to get a response).

Not only should add-ons be approved as they are but the members of the 'approval committee' should periodically brows the support threads to ensure the developer is in fact responding to requests for assistance - some support threads I have visited have posts months old that have not been responded to - such add-ons should be suspended and a post put in the support thread by admin saying that the developer is not responding in the thread so that users do not leave a post and be left hanging, they may then elect to ask their question in a mainstream thread and hope another Zenner aside from the developer has an answer. The developer then should be contacted by Admin requesting an explanation.

Is this more work for admin - yes. Will it provide a better a happier group of Zenners and reduce the amount of frustration often aimed unfairly on Zen Cart as a platform - yes. Would it be a good use of limited resources - IMHO yes. Could the workload be spread - yes. Engage Zenners, a 'beta' team of dedicated ZC users who would be willing to do some of the leg work and then submit anything noteworthy in a useful format to the admin members - ZC is a community afterall, right?

ZC should encourage developers who can produce plugins and apps that will help bring Zen Cart up to the level of some other eCommerce platforms primarily in areas of 'visual' presentation and imagery, the 'pretty' side of things as well as higher quality marketing tools. This is where the 'pay for use' category comes in. We as Zenners cannot expect everything for free, we cannot expect that among Zen Cart users there are people that albeit have the expertise buy as you pointed out Frank do not necessarily have the time nor resources to develop plugins to either the sophistication or functionality that may be desired. Zen Cart does the best job as far as a secure and stable platform goes, the best and it is economical to use in that all but a very few plugins are free, however the latter can also have its shortcomings. I think a blend of the historical ZC contributors free plugins and a selection of pay for use plugins and apps would satisfy a greater development of great eCommerce program. I sometimes get the impression that ZC developers (contributors) are competing with each other rather than working cooperatively, it is almost like the scorecard on the plugins page, a race to the top to get the badge of honor :)

Collaboration in development is often very important - there is no doubt the expertise among this community to develop just about anything if there was a system of collaboration between the existing talents - I personally do not see many signs of that in here. I am going to propose a new thread be added to the forum 'Plugin Developers Corner' where primarily developers can bounce ideas off each other - it would have a sub thread that Zenners could make requests for new plugins of improvements on existing ones - totally different to the wish list thread. Maybe it might act as a catalyst for new ideas and collaborations. (if not then scrap it after a while, but at least try it out).

I realize all of this requires the one resource that most involved in Zen Cart have very little of = Time. Maybe more community 'engagement' could be nurtured to develop 'teams' of interested Zenners to do some of the leg work, be thread monitors (not moderators) - it seems to work to some degree in Etsy and other shop sites.

cheers,
Mike

One. I think we just found our "beta" tester... :) That is because of the all of the above, right. And make sure that you've completed the testing in the next week so that the plugin can be issued. While you're at it spell check the instructions, read every piece/page, if it's not right or the "best" then all the work that has been done to make this app do as much as it does will be dumped because the originator hasn't pre-prepped the software package adequately for possibly the one(s) that need more instruction than less in order to install the software.

<rant?>
I would say in part that the above requested action if implemented in whole would 1) significantly delay if not prevent the issue of additional plugins which would then dramatically decrease the addition of potentially beneficial plugins, 2) it may actually increase the level of support to programmers as reported elsewhere recently the level of development support has decreased, thus if members of the community want added functionality they may have to contribute in order to sustain the giant system just proposed, and/or 3)

On the flip side, as an individual that has downloaded such "countless" plugins after not understanding the writeup of such plugins, what was done to improve the situation? Seems to me that by simply walking away without doing something about the confusion or functionality that such a download and description remains confusing for others. This leads to a similar discussion of the expectations of those that download and use/try a plugin (whether it truly is a plugin or any portion of a modification of ZC code). So, in the same vein users should be required to provide feedback about a plugin, and further that feedback should be constructive in a nature not just a "yeah I installed it" type response. To take it further, some form of tracking of the quantity of different plugins downloaded and if constructive feedback is not provided then the user is not permitted to download any different plugin until some form of contribution is provided back. Can’t tell you how surprising the lack of feedback from those using ZC really is. Plugin that was modified to support ZC 1.5.4 nearly 11 months ago. An error was accidentally introduced by a misspelling of a variable… Result, detailed pertinent information was not logged into the database… Know who said something? Someone that had a vested interest in the operation as they had provided compensation for other changes (willing to offer them back to the community) and personally went through either significant self-testing or monitored the results of the plugin to find the error. Did any single user of the program provide such feedback? Nope… Not a one.
Another plugin recently modified, individual downloads it, contrary to all description what seems like throughout the forum (maybe I’ve just read enough and had enough life experience to figure it out) installs it on a live server, says that’s crap and then supposedly “uninstalls” the software. They later say in an unrelated thread that they only uninstalled the SQL (obvious right, because there is an uninstall SQL function even though there is direction on how to uninstall), but they leave all/most of the files intact and don’t restore back to the previous condition. They rebuild. Ask about what the issue is or was with the installation and if not mistaken it was a wrong version installation process and a half merge (back to the just upload it and it’ll work thought/concept) indicating that truly the software wasn’t installed, but instead considered a hunk of junk before being installed…

I know that I have at least two “add-ons” that are only in the forum and not packaged as any type of fileset, for at least one of the very reasons that balihr has indicated not publishing other modifications… Documentation, packaging, support… At least in the “thread” I identified the lack of the other necessary considerations… Do/will most find each of them beneficial? Couldn’t say… It seems to be part of why so much has been removed from the core code. Not everyone needs everything that can be done… Instructions? Ha… Who reads those anymore? I feel for authors such as Anne who pretty much has to answer the same question time and time again, even when the question is asked a second time on the same page… The answer: It’s in the manual.

Add to the difficulty of preparing the package to offer some semblance of quality, seems like every time I go to upload a plugin, even after trying the last full installation on a vanilla install to verify that in the simplest store that it will work there is always something that gets forgotten, lost, or omitted... Whether it’s in the software description, the open source license, something unique about the install or upgrade script… I even try to do my own demo upload just to be sure that I fill in and write the desired information. After a bit, I find that I’m 1) excited because maybe what I provide will save someone else time as they either fully use or in a modified fashion use the software that I’ve chosen to share, 2) am aggravated that I have just spent the last 5 days perfecting just the submission portion of the software (having no impact on the operation of the software), 3) bored with this “end of process” action and have lost interest in making sure that it is right and just want to get it out there… I certainly don’t make plans to burden the software reviewer(s) with other updates/changes, but sometimes things happen… I’m sorry… But, I say in an open source community the provider(s) of something can do only so much with their time and energy as an individual; however, it seems that the masses could provide a little and make a huge difference…. Starting to sound like asking for a donation to a local charity, but it is in some way very similar… A little from everyone goes a long way, and unfortunately it also seems that many are “too scared” to do anything… (Human nature generally speaking… First thing suggested in a medical emergency? Identify someone, point at them and direct them to make the call to initiate emergency response… If, however, one calls out “someone help me!” the response is negligible… Who should act? Not me, I’m going to keep going on with my business or maybe stand and watch… )

Anyways… </rant?>

shags38:

II am going to propose a new thread be added to the forum 'Plugin Developers Corner' where primarily developers can bounce ideas off each other - it would have a sub thread that Zenners could make requests for new plugins of improvements on existing ones - totally different to the wish list thread. Maybe it might act as a catalyst for new ideas and collaborations. (if not then scrap it after a while, but at least try it out).

Umm... Put it where you want, but there is already Code Collaboration as an area to post... As far as competition? Yeah, I sometimes feel that way, but at the same time the "love" of those same individuals to offer assistance... Sorta' a love/hate relationship, but I believe/find it to be healthy...

Again, improvements on existing plugins??? To me that seems to be a no brainer, the forum for the plugin... As for deleting/closing other plugins if I understood the previous message correctly, please... So a person passes away... Sorry not supported any longer? Close shop??? Again, community stand up and take action... Not everyone has the time (wish I had/made more available) and then there are those that can't... But we don't live in the star trek universe...

shags38:

All categories should meet at least one MANDATORY criteria of a support thread, actually supported by the developer, not simply 'I/We developed it and we encourage the ZC community to support each other ....' as it is with some plugins, ie. developer opts out and leaves others to do the solving of any issues only responding when pressure is applied - this is typical of at least one major contributor in ZC - (I personally had to shame them on their Facebook page to get a response).
I don't know which developer you're talking about, but I really don't care. What I managed to read from this is:
nobody forced you to use a plugin that they gave away for free, then you wanted free support and were not getting it so you decided to publicly shame them because they didn't want to help you for free on a site where you're selling something and making profit.
So, because of your request, they had to put their paid work aside (the one that pays bills), had to pause working for people who pay them and come here to answer your questions for free?
Call me crazy, but does that really sound OK to you?

Not only should add-ons be approved as they are but the members of the 'approval committee' should periodically brows the support threads to ensure the developer is in fact responding to requests for assistance - some support threads I have visited have posts months old that have not been responded to - such add-ons should be suspended and a post put in the support thread by admin saying that the developer is not responding in the thread so that users do not leave a post and be left hanging, they may then elect to ask their question in a mainstream thread and hope another Zenner aside from the developer has an answer. The developer then should be contacted by Admin requesting an explanation.
It's fine with me. Take a nice, usable FREE plugin and ban it just because SOME people don't know how to use it and the author doesn't have the time to support it (for free). Why would the user spend more time on research or even find a developer and pay for the task? No, just ban the plugin, that's in the best interest of the community. Forget about the fact that there are hundreds or even thousands of users who didn't have any problems...

Is this more work for admin - yes. Will it provide a better a happier group of Zenners and reduce the amount of frustration often aimed unfairly on Zen Cart as a platform - yes. Would it be a good use of limited resources - IMHO yes. Could the workload be spread - yes. Engage Zenners, a 'beta' team of dedicated ZC users who would be willing to do some of the leg work and then submit anything noteworthy in a useful format to the admin members - ZC is a community afterall, right?
And who would benefit from this exactly?
Zen Cart IS a community, in fact one of the best communities ever. Please show me another 100% free platform with such a community. And don't say Etsy or Shopify or any other commercial solutions, please... Have you tried posting on Joomla's forums? Please do give it a try and let me know how many quotes via PM you will get and how many actually helpful public replies.
Next, let's not forget that it is a volunteers community. The way I see it, there's a community where members are dependent on one another, and then there's a community where one does not depend on the other. In this community, the plugin authors do not depend on users. I built and released a free plugin. You downloaded the plugin and enhanced your site. I did not benefit, but you did. And now you want to force me into helping you?

ZC should encourage developers who can produce plugins and apps that will help bring Zen Cart up to the level of some other eCommerce platforms primarily in areas of 'visual' presentation and imagery, the 'pretty' side of things as well as higher quality marketing tools. This is where the 'pay for use' category comes in. We as Zenners cannot expect everything for free, we cannot expect that among Zen Cart users there are people that albeit have the expertise buy as you pointed out Frank do not necessarily have the time nor resources to develop plugins to either the sophistication or functionality that may be desired. Zen Cart does the best job as far as a secure and stable platform goes, the best and it is economical to use in that all but a very few plugins are free, however the latter can also have its shortcomings. I think a blend of the historical ZC contributors free plugins and a selection of pay for use plugins and apps would satisfy a greater development of great eCommerce program. I sometimes get the impression that ZC developers (contributors) are competing with each other rather than working cooperatively, it is almost like the scorecard on the plugins page, a race to the top to get the badge of honor :)
And that's where Zen Cart would turn into Opencart. You would get a few (literally a few) free plugins and a whole bunch of paid plugins. The idea here is to share and support each other. Everyone chips in as much as they can. If there were a paid plugins section, everyone would do their best to push their plugins there instead of the free version. I mean, if I got $5 for each time my plugins were used, I'd written a 30 page installation manual, followed by a 25 minute YouTube video... And I'd probably have a beautiful swimming pool in my backyard...

I realize all of this requires the one resource that most involved in Zen Cart have very little of = Time. Maybe more community 'engagement' could be nurtured to develop 'teams' of interested Zenners to do some of the leg work, be thread monitors (not moderators) - it seems to work to some degree in Etsy and other shop sites.
Exactly - it seeks out more time. And you know time equals money. Everyone here sacrifices their time to help out fellow Zenners (when instead we could be out there making money or relaxing with our families). And then comes someone saying it's not enough and we should double the time here so that other people could benefit even more. Okay... Sure... I'll be the first to spend 8 hours per day here - as soon as I see all of those shops changing all of their prices to $0.00. Sounds reasonable to me.

Now, Mike... Don't put all the burden of the developers' backs. You ARE a part of the community, no? You have your server, right? Create a demo site. Install 5-10 plugins on that site. You're not a developer so you (probably) can't do detailed installation instructions, but never mind - write detailed descriptions about each of the plugins. Make sure you mention everything the plugin is capable of and include screenshots. Post the details here in the forum - either in the plugin's support thread, or you create a thread. Leave the demo site on and allow public access, post links to the demo so that hundreds of people from all over the world can visit, browse and learn about those plugins. That way people will know EXACTLY what the plugin is capable of and whether it will suit their needs or not. And, don't forget to subscribe to those threads so that you can reply when someone comes and asks "can that plugin do this" and you know it's the second screenshot you posted... You reply to questions about functionality, and let the developer reply questions about bugs or feature requests. Heck, please make sure you do that for one of my plugins, I sure could use that kind of help...

Community Contributed Plugins are just that, contributed and FREE as is Zen Cart.

You get what you pay for!

I am and I can admit one of the worst contributors.

I remove demo sites as fast as I make available due to an overwhelming amount of visitors and not to mention the spam these demo sites create. I no longer provide detailed instructions for they simply don't get read and I have to explain via a support forum anyways, most the time the same question over and over. I'm no longer active in my support threads for I get frustrated and irritated with the laziness, the community that gets everything for free wants so much more at the authors cost.

Separating plugins based on being a certain "criteria" is asinine, who's taking on that responsibility for FREE. And what's to say that persons opinion on "NOT MEETING CRITERIA" differs from others. Just cause one cant install it based on installation instructiond provided doesn't mean everyone will have those same difficulties. Who decides which plugins are "PAID" or not, why will one authors work be valued and not the others.

Tighten the "guidelines" on community contributed plugins and the community will find themselves buying commercial plugins for even the smallest things.

Everyone that complains about incomplete plugins or functions that should exist should do the community a favor and spend "their" time documenting file alterations, writing installation instruction and re-packaging those incomplete plugins to help others in the community that may run into the same difficulties that they did.

Just because your not the original author doesn't mean you cant contribute and upload a better documented version of it.

Just my #2cents, I have been following several discussions here on the forums for several weeks and I am disgusted and appalled.

Nothing in life is FREE, it's provided but if you want to make it your own then own it and stop bitching about it!

Edit, Remove, Delete at will.

Everyone that complains about incomplete plugins or functions that should exist should do the community a favor and spend "their" time documenting file alterations, writing installation instruction and re-packaging those incomplete plugins to help others in the community that may run into the same difficulties that they did.

Just because your not the original author doesn't mean you cant contribute and upload a better documented version of it.

Damn right!

Almost everything I have ever uploaded has just been a cleaning-up exercise of someone else's code/idea to fix the problems that I encountered and trying to give something back as being "the right thing to do".
That doesn't make me the owner, or one of these many "developers" that people keep mentioning, nor responsible for correcting bugs other people find subsequently.

You don't like it/it's not good enough, then you fix it, don't complain about the free lunch.

My first reaction is that the comments since my last post, are in the main defensive of the current system or defensive of the individuals situation, and that the system is not broken so why bother to fix it. So much for 'community' - the majority of those with the skills to do coding do not generally have problems with plugins - they have the nouse and experience to work through the glitches - and they can actually make recommendations for the fixes and even submit them back to the developer. The majority of us poor cretins without such skills need a lot of support for certain plugins that either lack the communication level that a cretin can understand and such then be able to handle the install correctly - that support is absolutely fabulous in many plugin support threads and definitively lacking in others. It is the others that the system needs to fix to minimize frustration.

The other common comment is that it is FREE, don't complain about getting a free lunch. Some of the free plugins I would gladly pay for if they had an acceptable user pays price, I'm sure there would also be others of the same opinion, however just because it is free doesn't in anyway justify the lack of support for what can often be not so good plugins (not integrating properly). Free is not an excuse for don't care attitude, work it out for yourself or ask someone else in another forum approach. I personally had 4 websites unable to trade due to lack of integration between two add-ons with both developers blaming the other for code clashes, one used non standard ZC code protocols - no warnings at all in the intro nor the instructions. Regardless of the singular attitude of a developer the user should not have to suffer financially because of such things.

Yes there are those out there that do not read carefully and hence cause all sorts of time wasting issues for developers (and others) - again this group doesn't justify the 'people don't read the instructions anyway' tag being applied to everyone - or writing instructions for the average Joe is too hard as long as the gifted ones understand then it is OK. I figure there are 3 groups in ZC; those that understand coding and are able to either construct and offer plugins, those that are not coders but either have learned some basics via forums and genuinely try to follow instructions and even nut things out for themselves before going to a support thread, and lastly those that have no idea and are not interested in learning about even the basics of coding to then be able to help themselves to at least a minor degree and who leech off others and expect everything to be done for them (I will let you assess which category I fit into :) )

At the end of the day it is apparent that things won't change so I am wearing out my keyboard for no apparent reason - it would be interesting to see some comments from non coders to see just how far off track I am - but alas they don't read this forum thread.

So no real reason to continue this thread - cheers, Mike

p.s. I am interested in having a plugin developed for use in ZC - anyone interested in taking a look at the specs and offering a quote? I have posted the idea in a couple of threads with little or no response to date (posted in Wishlist in February)

shags38:

My first reaction is that the comments since my last post, are in the main defensive of the current system or defensive of the individuals situation, and that the system is not broken so why bother to fix it. So much for 'community' - the majority of those with the skills to do coding do not generally have problems with plugins - they have the nouse and experience to work through the glitches - and they can actually make recommendations for the fixes and even submit them back to the developer. The majority of us poor cretins without such skills need a lot of support for certain plugins that either lack the communication level that a cretin can understand and such then be able to handle the install correctly - that support is absolutely fabulous in many plugin support threads and definitively lacking in others. It is the others that the system needs to fix to minimize frustration.

The other common comment is that it is FREE, don't complain about getting a free lunch. Some of the free plugins I would gladly pay for if they had an acceptable user pays price, I'm sure there would also be others of the same opinion, however just because it is free doesn't in anyway justify the lack of support for what can often be not so good plugins (not integrating properly). Free is not an excuse for don't care attitude, work it out for yourself or ask someone else in another forum approach. I personally had 4 websites unable to trade due to lack of integration between two add-ons with both developers blaming the other for code clashes, one used non standard ZC code protocols - no warnings at all in the intro nor the instructions. Regardless of the singular attitude of a developer the user should not have to suffer financially because of such things.

Yes there are those out there that do not read carefully and hence cause all sorts of time wasting issues for developers (and others) - again this group doesn't justify the 'people don't read the instructions anyway' tag being applied to everyone - or writing instructions for the average Joe is too hard as long as the gifted ones understand then it is OK. I figure there are 3 groups in ZC; those that understand coding and are able to either construct and offer plugins, those that are not coders but either have learned some basics via forums and genuinely try to follow instructions and even nut things out for themselves before going to a support thread, and lastly those that have no idea and are not interested in learning about even the basics of coding to then be able to help themselves to at least a minor degree and who leech off others and expect everything to be done for them (I will let you assess which category I fit into :) )

At the end of the day it is apparent that things won't change so I am wearing out my keyboard for no apparent reason - it would be interesting to see some comments from non coders to see just how far off track I am - but alas they don't read this forum thread.

So no real reason to continue this thread - cheers, Mike

p.s. I am interested in having a plugin developed for use in ZC - anyone interested in taking a look at the specs and offering a quote? I have posted the idea in a couple of threads with little or no response to date (posted in Wishlist in February)

I'm going to step out of the "let's talk code" aspect of things and provide an observation. First of all and I'm addressing my own response(s) as they were grouped into the above first line. I had been working on my response the entire day since seeing the "this is how it ought to be" post and placing all of the ownership on the programmer and nothing on the user(s)... Next, the above starts with: all being defensive and then there are the stereotypical 3 items in a list and ending with, ending with I give up, I can't have an open conversation about how improvements can be furthered, but instead will do what it takes to support myself and better my own position... In fact I'm going to bring up for the fourth time about how everyone must have the functional interface of etsy and how no one else could possibly understand and it is a must have possibility by everyone... Noticing that even within less than a week that we had had a conversation about the topic, you started yet another thread on the exact same topic... A no-no in the community forum.

Okay, so you aren't a programmer, you may not know all the ins and outs of the terminology... You can write, correct? You can ask and answer questions, right? And if you don't understand something being said or requested, you have the ability to say please explain, correct? So, what is it about your situation that excuses you (and others) from participating and offering suggestions in the applicable thread about the issues particularly to indicate, hey I did/have done the following and these are the results I got?

As for "pay for users price"??? Seriously? That sounds like an excuse not a reason... If you truly wished to compensate ("buy a cup of coffee for someone") then there ought to be any of a number of ways to do so without necessarily "buying a users license"... The first and easiest being, hey boss I'd like to send you something, how might I be able to do that?

If you want someone to develop a plugin, may I suggest going to the Commercial Help Wanted forum... Perhaps someone there would pick up your request?

You would be surprised at the number of people that have or likely will read this thread as developer's or not... Please continue to lambast, ridicule and group everyone into their "place", there's nothing that will help your cause more...

For those that have read my previous posts, probably are surprised at the above, yes it's abnormal, I'm all for change, but it is a two way street, factors that have been identified by all seem valid, perhaps not stated because for some of those involved, well they've maintained professionalism... Hell, one of them has even made improvements to code which I improved upon, and I have yet to have the time in the priority list of furthering free code, daily life, household care, and those that have sought me out... It's not effort lost, but it certainly isn't/wasn't effort timely turned around. :) And even with that effort there were some other issues present to be worked out...

Back a little on the programmers "fighting" thing? Well, that "attitude" is not specific to ZC, it is generally a programmer's take.. Afterall, always right (0 and 1), knows the most, everyone else is just not worthy, yes all a stereotype (and there is far more descriptive words, but not needed)... A stereotype that doesn't have to be followed... But it is also the challenge that tends to be enticing... Somewhere in this forum, someone summarized programmers in a way similar to those that rise to the challenge at almost all costs, that take interest in the tough matters, and just can't let go... Maybe it was characteristic of a different type individual, but generally speaking it seems that many of those "negative" characteristics actually are what help drive the positive result(s).. Of course I tend to attribute some of the negative stuff as a partial result of personal aggravation/irritation, but what do I know...

firstly the subject matter is different to my previous post - secondly in any of the comments, any, try and find a positive - yep some things need fixing - every comment was defensive or critical with no positivity in respect to let's try and improve it. Like it is with a lot of written communication it can be read to fit.

I didn't 'give up' - as a realist it is obvious developers are taking offence so why would I continue to pour salt into the wound.

I looked at putting my request in the Commercial Help Wanted but upon visiting that thread I noticed this 'There have been no posts in the last 365 days in this forum.' - so the likelihood is that a post in there would be seen by very few - hence a suggestion I made about a forum thread that encouraged developers and Zenners alike to visit and discuss ideas - or maybe I missed that thread as well. The wishlist thread doesn't work for 'community' discussion, it is primarily a suggestion box, put your idea in a slot and wait for the next version to see if it was taken up.

I love Zen Cart but it frustrates the living daylights out of me as it seems very much like the old school tie club when it comes to trying to offer some ideas. I used the term collaboration in respect to ideas people, people with needs and people with skills (developers) getting their heads together and discussing the pros and cons of a particular plugin idea - it seems that there is little support for such an idea. I am a Marketing person, my input is about marketing (products via websites - it is what I do well)

I don't want this to be a pissing match so hence I figured I would refrain from commenting further in the hope that that the subject would go away, I'm finished with it.

Funny though, you look at the plugin page(s) and there is the 'contributors' list - seems you can only contribute to the ZC community if you can code a plug in, submitting ideas seems not to be contributing to the development of ZC :) (facetious I know but just couldn't resist it) :smile:

cheers, Mike

shags38:

firstly the subject matter is different to my previous post - secondly in any of the comments, any, try and find a positive - yep some things need fixing - every comment was defensive or critical with no positivity in respect to let's try and improve it. Like it is with a lot of written communication it can be read to fit.
There's a reason comments were defensive. After having 4 hours of sleep (yes, that's how much we sleep) and now getting back to work, I have calmed down a bit.
The primary reason for being defensive is that your suggestions were in no way constructive. All you were saying is "we, the users, want programmers to work much more and much harder, so that we could benefit more." You don't show gratitude for what was given to you, but instead you require more to be given. Yet, you choose not to participate at all, just leech more.
It's easy to throw ideas and speak about how things should/could be. However, when it's time to pull the sleeves up and work, you back away.

shags38:

I didn't 'give up' - as a realist it is obvious developers are taking offence so why would I continue to pour salt into the wound.
Not so much taking offense, as much as it hurts to see that the work and efforts are not appreciated. The developer who contributed a plugin offered you a hand, but you want the whole arm. And he must be willing to give a leg as well or risk being banned from the forum. Why? Just because he/she decided to share something with others in the hope of helping you improve your site?

I looked at putting my request in the Commercial Help Wanted but upon visiting that thread I noticed this 'There have been no posts in the last 365 days in this forum.' - so the likelihood is that a post in there would be seen by very few - hence a suggestion I made about a forum thread that encouraged developers and Zenners alike to visit and discuss ideas - or maybe I missed that thread as well. The wishlist thread doesn't work for 'community' discussion, it is primarily a suggestion box, put your idea in a slot and wait for the next version to see if it was taken up.
True, but something that you consider a must-have would probably be useless to someone else. If a feature is really a must-have and 99% of users would benefit, then most of such stuff IS developed. Otherwise, you can go and hire someone to do it for you.

shags38:

I love Zen Cart but it frustrates the living daylights out of me as it seems very much like the old school tie club when it comes to trying to offer some ideas.
Again, please show us another community where everything is free and you can demand extra load on the developers, where they need to explain themselves why they didn't reply to the support thread. Constructive ideas are most welcome, but do make it constructive. Consider both views, make sure your idea is beneficial for everyone involved and your wishes might be granted.

shags38:

I used the term collaboration in respect to ideas people, people with needs and people with skills (developers) getting their heads together and discussing the pros and cons of a particular plugin idea - it seems that there is little support for such an idea. I am a Marketing person, my input is about marketing (products via websites - it is what I do well)
No, it's not a tie club. Let's put all the cards down. You're running an online shop, right? Whether it's a hobby or your business, you're making money with it. You benefit from your site. On the other hand, developers who contribute their code are not making money from these plugins. If you need something and you will benefit from it, why not pay someone to do it for you? Contact the plugin author via PM and ask them to help you for a fee. Or hire a developer or freelancer. Why would you expect anyone to do all the (hard) work for you, build something for you and then give it to you as a gift? That's not collaboration between the programmer and the user, that's exploitation. Why don't you pay for it to be a plugin, require detailed documentation (and be ready to pay extra for it) and you can then share it with the community?

You mentioned earlier you'd be willing to pay for a plugin? You'd be surprised to hear how many people tell me that 20 bucks is too much to install a plugin, exchange 20 emails and teach them how to use a plugin. What would be considered fair, $5? And then you own me and want first-class support?

shags38:

I don't want this to be a pissing match so hence I figured I would refrain from commenting further in the hope that that the subject would go away, I'm finished with it.
That's actually the worst thing you can do. Let's start over. Provide quality suggestions. Come up with a plan that works for both the average Joe AND for the developers. Don't push all the workload to the developers asking them to work even more (without being paid). Keep in mind nobody works for free, but only a handful of people volunteer in their free time for the greater good. If you have a volunteer willing to help you, don't insist on getting even more help... I don't want to be rude and I certainly don't want to compare the average Joe to a beggar, but this is like giving 5 bucks to a homeless beggar and he gives it back to you screaming "either give me 20 or walk away..."

Show us constructive ideas on how the users and developers can share the burden. I spent 20-30 hours creating, testing and debugging a plugin. Now who's gonna share that load with me and invest his/her 5 hours to write detailed documentation? Anyone else interested in spending 10-20 hours providing support on the forum? Anyone willing to spend 2-3 hours creating a video tutorial?

Naaa, Mike, you did raise a very valid point by starting this thread. Reading through all the comments, be they short or a lot of blah blah, I can take home a few good points and ideas.

And, at almost 62, I couldn't give a hoots about any whinging..... I say what I want (in a polite way ofc - after all it's public) and when I want. I take on board what concerns/interests me and the rest is discarded - just a legacy from 28 years in the shipping industry, the latter part as Master Mariner.

To keep things short, just a few thoughts:

The devs are taking notice of the submitted mods and many mods are now part of the standard ZC code. Ajeh has helped me with CSAR by asking a few 'what ifs' and pointing out some weaknesses.

After submission of PDP (Local Delivery Only / product delivery by postcode) DrByte PM'd me saying that the devs would have incorporated that mod into the next ZC release if it wasn't for me modifying a core file, namely functions_prices.php. Thanks, point taken.

Many fellow Zenners gave me hints how to do things better and discovered bugs which were subsequently corrected. I do the same with mods developed by others - and that's exactly what it's all about: collaboration.

The code of any mod is open source, everyone is welcome to change / improve the functionality of the submission.

Sure, I could pop them into GitHub but I just don't have the time now - not yet!

What did I learn from this thread?

1. let others do some testing before submission
2. pay better attention to the documentation (I have been trying to do my best and make it as clear as possible)

That's it from me - thanks again for raising these issues.

Coding and documentation writing are two entirely different skills and it's not surprising that finding someone who can do both well is rare. My meager two plugins are just my flailing around with someone else's code, but I think they're pretty well documented. It's possible that if someone were to start a thread naming plugins which seem valuable but whose documentation isn't up to snuff, someone like me, who is much better with English than with PHP, might take a stab at fixing things. Understand that I don't subscribe to the notion that such instructions need to include tutorials on how to use FTP or CSS.

I would also like to see a provision for plugin authors to have their mods removed from the Plugins area if they fail to work with newer versions of ZC, or for any reason at all, really.

Thanks for the input Steve

stevesh:

Coding and documentation writing are two entirely different skills and it's not surprising that finding someone who can do both well is rare.
Like Sales and Marketing - two different disciplines but integral to each other -a good sales person can be a lousy marketer and vice versa - devs please do not assume personal inference here
It's possible that if someone were to start a thread naming plugins which seem valuable but whose documentation isn't up to snuff, someone like me, who is much better with English than with PHP, might take a stab at fixing things. Understand that I don't subscribe to the notion that such instructions need to include tutorials on how to use FTP or CSS.
It is good to see Steve that someone has taken up on a positive suggestion - a thread where developers and users (or leeches as we are sometimes referred to) can work collaboratively. I have no doubt there would be many Zenners who would be prepared to 'contribute' in respect to perusing plugin description and install instructions and make suggestions for modification to alleviate the workload on developers who do not have the time to expound on such documentation. I for one would be happy to participate

I would also like to see a provision for plugin authors to have their mods removed from the Plugins area if they fail to work with newer versions of ZC, or for any reason at all, really.
I totally agree with this as I am sure many others would also - this is one of the 'minimum criteria' aspects I was alluding to, plugins needing to meet a criteria but that criteria needs to be set by Admin. This particular aspect you have pointed out would be a very good starting point for a gradual 'reform' or 'upgrade' to the plugin process, one that would not put undue pressure on Admin or Developers, e.g. someone, and I have no problem in being that someone or one of a small 'team', can simply review all plugins for that specific aspect (works with current version) making a list with url's of those that do not state that they work with latest versions - submit the list to Admin - Admin send out a 'standard format' email to developers asking for relevant information/validation of conformity to current version.

Given previous comments that the code is communal and that anyone in the community can alter code to improve a plugin, should a developer not respond to the email advice for some reason or other then that plugin can be listed in a thread as requiring upgrading to conform to current version - the thread asking for volunteers from the community to do the required upgrade.

There are many examples of existing plugins that the original author has not continued to support, for whatever reasons and I am not casting aspersions as to the reasons, that have been 'adopted' by other Zenners - my assumption (likely incorrect) is that the new 'author/caretaker' of the plugin likely had a requirement for it and took it upon themselves to upgrade it (to the benefit of everyone). A specific thread as suggested would highlight plugins that need or could benefit from modification to 'the community' and those that are inclined could 'do their bit' whether it be code or documentation work, or both.

To my mind this would be a good example of community collaboration.

cheers, Mike

Frank, many thanks for your input - wise words - we senior citizens abound in wisdom do we not :smile:

[QUOTE=frank18;1298342]
The devs are taking notice of the submitted mods and many mods are now part of the standard ZC code. Ajeh has helped me with CSAR by asking a few 'what ifs' and pointing out some weaknesses.[QUOTE]
I understand that this is happening Frank, and I have seen it in posts - my suggestions were aimed at possibly introducing a methodology that would provide the mechanism for collaboration across the board rather than just sometimes in isolation, a think tank for want of a better term. In such a think tank scenario maybe others aside from Ajeh may have been inclined to offer input, who knows.

After submission of PDP (Local Delivery Only / product delivery by postcode) DrByte PM'd me saying that the devs would have incorporated that mod into the next ZC release if it wasn't for me modifying a core file, namely functions_prices.php. Thanks, point taken.
Could this scenario have been a good example of the benefit of a specific forum/thread for plugin development/collaboration that may have seen the plugin you developed commented on by others and then modified in respect to core files before submission?

Many fellow Zenners gave me hints how to do things better and discovered bugs which were subsequently corrected. I do the same with mods developed by others - and that's exactly what it's all about: collaboration.
I have no doubt that there is this level collaboration, I have seen it in some posts in some support threads - just wondering how many more Zenners may have offered input etc if there was a forum specifically for that purpose? I am not sure if such a forum would have any additional benefit or not.