Cart not charging shipping unless customer is logged in!

I just found my store is not charging shipping if a customer checks out with Paypal and is not logged into their store account!
I need to fix this quick! LOL
More important I thought I would mention this in case others have same issue and not found it yet!

Zencart v1.5.1 and I am using the built in cart and shipping stuff, and Paypal is the only way to pay!

What seems to happen is if I go to my store and do not log into my account I put items into my cart, go to my cart and I have the items and totals for the items but no shipping charge.
I can go to Paypal from there and there is NO shipping charge if I choose to pay for the order!
OR, I can go to Check out, then to Paypal, and still NO shipping charge if I pay for the order.

IF I log into my customer account then go look at the cart it shows the $8 flat rate shipping correctly as it should, and of course if I paid for the order I'd be paying the shipping!

So basically what is happening is a guest could shop at my store and place an order and NOT pay shipping, but a customer logged into their account DOES pay shipping!

What is the best way to fix this? I want everyone charged the flat rate shipping of course.
I would be happy to let folks shop and buy as a guest, I know allot of folks don't like making accounts for every little thing everywhere.

At this time I have my store set up for $8 flat rate shipping and free shipping over $75
using the built in Zencart modules.

I'll do some more searching and read the E-book I bought and hope I find my problems and why this happened like this.
I thought it would be good to post it also as maybe this is not a common issue and might help others later also once I find how to fix it. Also something to look for and check!

I found my answer!

It works strange for a guest! It did charge the shipping!
I could not complete a purchase myself since the Store uses my Paypal, I can't send myself a PayPal from the account into the same account. LOL

Wife woke up, middle of night here! She bought an item as a guest with her Paypal.

It seems the shipping is never shown in the store cart, click to pay with PayPal and when you get to the PayPal page it shows the cart total for the items in the cart but NO shipping Charge! Clicking to pay the order in Paypal then kicks the buyer back to a Store page to confirm the order, this is when the shipping charge was added and shown! Clicking to confirm the order the sale was made and done!

I think this is NOT a good way for it to work, I don't know if it can be changed in Zencart or not?
I know that when I go to any store to buy an item I will not buy anything or checkout to Paypal at all until I KNOW what the shipping and total charges are!
This basically means as it's working now, I would NEVER buy anything from my own store! LOL
If this were some other store I would never have gone as far as PAYPAL's site, and then there still had to click to buy, then sent back to the store page where finally the shipping did show!
Once I saw the shipping was working I told the wife just cancel the purchase and never mind. She was using a NOOK and she could not find anything on page to cancel the order and just quit either!

I do see now, the shipping is being charged to a guest, but it seems to be handled in a not to good of way.
Maybe with some more reading and searching I can find options to change it?

Bikerstuff:

I do see now, the shipping is being charged to a guest, but it seems to be handled in a not to good of way.
Maybe with some more reading and searching I can find options to change it?

When a guest clicks on the PayPal button Zencart has no idea where the product is to be shipped, therefore it can't provide shipping costs until they come back to the store with the address data provided by PayPal. The total costs are then available when the order is confirmed.

Can you think of another way for this to be handled?

Cheers
RodG

Maybe guest enter the shipping address in the store cart before any links to go to Paypal?
Or at least the zipcode for USA, not sure what for other places?

I'm looking for a way too remove the first Paypal link also when first loading the cart.
When first going to the cart there is a PayPal link, and the option to go through checkout.
If folks use that first Paypal link I think they miss the checkout options to enter a GC code and not sure about a coupon code? Then in checkout there is the second Paypal link.

I think most the stores I shop at calculate the shipping on the zipcode, just enter zipcode in the cart, and shippings added to the cart total before ever entering any payment info, and before going to paypal.

Bikerstuff:

Maybe guest enter the shipping address in the store cart before any links to go to Paypal?.
Or at least the zipcode for USA, not sure what for other places?

Then what will/should happen if PayPal has a different postcode/address than the one that the guest enters?

In your case it probably isn't going to be a big deal since you charge a flat rate regardless of destination, but with other sites this can easily lead to abuse or customer complaints that the amount charged isn't what was quoted.

Bikerstuff:

I'm looking for a way too remove the first Paypal link also when first loading the cart.

I don't think there is a setting/option for that, but it shouldn't be too difficult to locate the code that displays the link and comment it out. The exact file/location would be dependant on the template/theme that you are using.

Bikerstuff:

When first going to the cart there is a PayPal link, and the option to go through checkout.
If folks use that first Paypal link I think they miss the checkout options to enter a GC code and not sure about a coupon code? Then in checkout there is the second Paypal link.

I think the Express Checkout: Skip Payment Page has an effect on this behaviour.

Bikerstuff:

I think most the stores I shop at calculate the shipping on the zipcode, just enter zipcode in the cart,

See my 1st comment about this.
Also, as far as 'most stores' go, I don't think I know of any that utilises **Express Checkout AND **requires the user to enter a zip code before checking out. It somewhat defeats the entire point of using express checkout, don't you think? Can you give an example of such a store?

Bikerstuff:

and shippings added to the cart total before ever entering any payment info, and before going to paypal.

Seems to me that you need to configure your store so that customers need to create an account before adding products to the cart. You are trying to 'have your cake and eat it too'.

Cheers
RodG

I'm not sure about the Express Checkout, what it actually does or how it works, what it effects.

However I think the store should calculate the shipping costs and add them to the total before any method of checkout or payment so a customer knows what his REAL total will be.
$100 for an order is NOT the total if the customer is billed $125 later after the shipping is added on at a final page to confirm the order..

I'll have to look into how this works more, maybe disable express if I can?
If a customer has to enter the shipping address into the store cart that is fine, but they should still be able to pay with paypal using a credit card and no account there if they want.
That is what I thought the Express was!
I do want the customer to know the full amount they will be charged before leaving the store cart page though!

Almost everywhere I have bought without an account in the store but still paid with paypal has shown me the total of the order as I will be billed for it, not a part total and then more added later.
Though I normally log into my paypal account to pay and do not use credit card with paypal.

newegg.com comes to mind. I see the full total of the order I will be charged once I enter my zipcode and choose the shipping method I want to use, even when NOT logged into my account.
Then I decide how I want to pay, credit card or Paypal. Most the time I use my card, only paypal if there is a balance in the account I want to use up.

I do have an account at newegg because I did allot of business with them and it's very handy to look at past orders, even look up discontinued items I bought long ago to find details I forgot now like what CPU's a system board can use.
Most stores I will not even make an account at all, and rarely if ever for a first order!
So I do not want to force accounts with my store.
I know people like me will just say heck with it and leave the store and not buy anything before we will make an account at a unknown store.
If I see I am happy with a store and that I will be buying from them often then I may make an account and use it.

I may have made an account at a store for first order when I bought sand paper I needed. $15 for 100 sheets, and local I'd pay maybe $4 for 5 sheets! Placing a $100-$150 order there for 8x11 sheets and 6" adhesive disks saved me about $500 or so.
But that would be a rare exception that I made that store account for a first purchase!

This question comes up from time to time. As RodG asked, how could Zencart calculate shipping costs before/unless the visitor enters his address ? As you know, Paypal (or any other payment processor) has no way of calculating shipping without knowing at least the customer's zipcode. The shipping estimator is just that - an estimator based on the zip code entered. That zip code is not passed to Paypal. The fact that Paypal Express is an off-site processor makes it necessary to add shipping costs on the customer's return to your shop. There's no way to 'fix' that.

I would be interested in a link to a store which adds shipping costs to my order if I don't create an account before I'm sent to Paypal using Express.

It's probably unreasonable to compare your shop to NewEgg or Amazon, both of whom require creation of an account. My personal opinion is that Zenners worry far too much about visitors balkng at creating an account if that function is made as simple as possible and the reasons to do so are explained. My thinking is that any visitor who leaves in a huff because you require account creation is a customer you probably don't want anyway.

Bikerstuff:

I'm looking for a way too remove the first Paypal link also when first loading the cart.
When first going to the cart there is a PayPal link, and the option to go through checkout.
Easy: Go to Admin->Modules->Payment->PayPal Express Checkout. Click Edit. Turn off the "Express Checkout Shortcut Button" option. Save.

Bikerstuff:

I do have an account at newegg because I did allot of business with them and it's very handy to look at past orders, even look up discontinued items I bought long ago to find details I forgot now like what CPU's a system board can use.
Most stores I will not even make an account at all, and rarely if ever for a first order!
So I do not want to force accounts with my store.
I know people like me will just say heck with it and leave the store and not buy anything before we will make an account at a unknown store.
If I see I am happy with a store and that I will be buying from them often then I may make an account and use it.You may not have to create an "account" but you do have to provide BILLING and SHIPPING information.. so despite the fact that you are not making them create a username with a password, they do in fact have to provide the following information for ANY online store selling PHYSICAL merchandise:

• Name
• Address (for shipping and credit card verification purposes)
• email address (to facilitate all sales related communications)

Now I cannot speak for stores outside the US, but for LEGIT USA based businesses, you still have to collect this minimal information if you are selling virtual products for TAX purposes..

My point?? Folks make a REALLY big deal about not making customers create an account. Truth is that with some mods to some of the checkout language, the addition of some mods to help make the process a little more transparent (like Minimum Customer Account Information, Order Steps and COWOA which bundles in Order Steps), the so-called "issues" associated with checking out with an account are pretty much non-issues.. IJS..

Bikerstuff:

I'm not sure about the Express Checkout, what it actually does or how it works, what it effects.
Clearly.. The behavior you describe IS how the "Express Checkout Shortcut" feature of PayPal Express works.. Since PAYPAL is not calculating the shipping it HAS to take you back to the store after you log in to get the shipping calc and THEN return you to PayPal for completing the payment transaction.. This isn't a ZEN CART thing it's how the "Express Checkout Shortcut" feature of PayPal Express works. DrByte told you how to turn this off.. (quoted again below) Once you turn off the "Express Checkout Shortcut" featurefolks will go through the normal checkout process.. If you REALLY wnat them to not HAVE to create an account, then install COWOA or FEC..

DrByte:

Easy: Go to Admin->Modules->Payment->PayPal Express Checkout. Click Edit. Turn off the "Express Checkout Shortcut Button" option. Save.

Also think about this, the other sites mentioned don't leave the site to take credit card information. Paypal offers those options but at a fee if I am not mistaken. That option could also be exercised to possibly address some of the same issue. But I haven't investigated what options are offered under that plan so one would have to do one's research first.

One could also add instructions/guidance about what is expected to happen. What is better a site that just lands a customer somewhere or one that guides them through the process? Be hones, be open. Because this site uses a PayPal Express payment collection. method shipping charges will not be calculated until step x of the checkout process and that no charges will be applied until the purchase has been accepted in step y.

Then on steps x and y can provide further instruction.

Just a thought. There's more than one way to address a perceived problem.

stevesh:

This question comes up from time to time. As RodG asked, how could Zencart calculate shipping costs before/unless the visitor enters his address ? As you know, Paypal (or any other payment processor) has no way of calculating shipping without knowing at least the customer's zipcode. The shipping estimator is just that - an estimator based on the zip code entered. That zip code is not passed to Paypal. The fact that Paypal Express is an off-site processor makes it necessary to add shipping costs on the customer's return to your shop. There's no way to 'fix' that.

I would be interested in a link to a store which adds shipping costs to my order if I don't create an account before I'm sent to Paypal using Express.

It's probably unreasonable to compare your shop to NewEgg or Amazon, both of whom require creation of an account. My personal opinion is that Zenners worry far too much about visitors balkng at creating an account if that function is made as simple as possible and the reasons to do so are explained. My thinking is that any visitor who leaves in a huff because you require account creation is a customer you probably don't want anyway.

Newegg does not require an account. Or at least did not.
I have bought from Newegg using credit card several times and Paypal when I first started dealing with them many years ago, I just entered the zipcode into the box it gives my 3-5 shipping options and the cost for each, I select the one I want and it adds it to my total and that is my full final cost for the order.
THEN I go through check out later and add full shipping address etc... and credit card etc.., or choose paypal.
But I see my shipping costs as I add and remove each item in the cart while still shopping until I decide to go ahead and place the order. When I checked a few days ago it seemed to still work the same way.
Many times I have played the add and remove game at many stores till I get the items I want.
I used to place a $300-$500 orders with Newegg a couples times a week for a short while years ago. And 2 orders a month for some amount for years.
Even when checking out with the Paypal I know my shipping first before leaving Newegg, though maybe that is not using Express?

I don't think Zenners worry too much about lost customers because they do not want to make accounts, I am one they would perhaps loose at many stores! I have spent well over $600 near $1k online between several stores in last couple weeks or a month alone, so may not want to loose me!

Most my buys are things to make money with, ink system for a special printer, blank stock to imprint at other store, a few orders for merchandise for the store, paint one place and sand paper another for the bike I plan to sell later after painted, couple special DVDs etc...
Much of what I have bought would not have been sold to me if I had to make a store account at each store!
Like those motorcycle DVD's, a bit expensive but a special interest, was borderline if I was going to buy them or not right up till I clicked the PAY button. If forced to make any account that sale would have been lost for sure, as well as some of the others like the special ink system I was trying to decide on between to different stores!
IF forced to make an account where I bought the ink system I would have just gone to the other store!

DrByte:

Easy: Go to Admin->Modules->Payment->PayPal Express Checkout. Click Edit. Turn off the "Express Checkout Shortcut Button" option. Save.

THANKS!

WOW, how did I ever miss all that! There is allot I need to look into in that area, I don't think I went into it that far.
Once Paypal set up and working I guess I thought that was all that was in that part.

DivaVocals:

You may not have to create an "account" but you do have to provide BILLING and SHIPPING information.. so despite the fact that you are not making them create a username with a password, they do in fact have to provide the following information for ANY online store selling PHYSICAL merchandise:

• Name

• Address (for shipping and credit card verification purposes)

• email address (to facilitate all sales related communications)

Now I cannot speak for stores outside the US, but for LEGIT USA based businesses, you still have to collect this minimal information if you are selling virtual products for TAX purposes..

My point?? Folks make a REALLY big deal about not making customers create an account. Truth is that with some mods to some of the checkout language, the addition of some mods to help make the process a little more transparent (like Minimum Customer Account Information, Order Steps and COWOA which bundles in Order Steps), the so-called "issues" associated with checking out with an account are pretty much non-issues.. IJS..

I think many of us do not want to make accounts because we do not want to be permanently linked to a store or any of our info on file at the store other than to place the order and be then be removed.
If we make accounts then we are in the store system for life!

How a store handles account info is often different than just placing an order. Hackers may get into the accounts area like they just did with EBAY a few months ago, but may have allot harder time getting into the order and billing part of the store!
If I have an account and the store is hacked for the accounts, they get my info! If that info is NOT there then hackers cannot get it.
We see even EBAY cannot be trusted to keep our accounts secure, why would I trust some tiny store I never heard of before just to place a 1 time only order?
I don't even have any idea what software a store may be using most the time.

If I do not have an account then a hacker can not log into the account.
If I do not have a password, then a hacker cannot crack the password!
If my e-mail is not in an account, a hacker cannot spam me if he hacks into the stores user accounts.
Hacker cannot get my address or phone number if it is not there!
Etc.. Etc..

I just went to a website I used to be a real active member of but not been there for YEARS, my user account is still there and still active and I logged in just fine. That is great I can still get into the forum after all these years, but there is NO personal info there I care about, just an e-mail address and it is my spam box junk address anyway.
I DO NOT want a store to keep an account open for 5-10 years like that with my personal info for a 1 time purchase when I may never go back to that store again!

Newegg is a bit different, and I like the fact that I can look up my orders from the day I made the account so many years ago and see what I bought when and even most the time find the details for discontinued items etc..
So it was good in this case that Newegg did not delete my user account after a few years of not buying anything. But that is the RARE exception of wanting an account.

DivaVocals:

Clearly.. The behavior you describe IS how the "Express Checkout Shortcut" feature of PayPal Express works.. Since PAYPAL is not calculating the shipping it HAS to take you back to the store after you log in to get the shipping calc and THEN return you to PayPal for completing the payment transaction.. This isn't a ZEN CART thing it's how the "Express Checkout Shortcut" feature of PayPal Express works. DrByte told you how to turn this off.. (quoted again below) Once you turn off the "Express Checkout Shortcut" featurefolks will go through the normal checkout process.. If you REALLY wnat them to not HAVE to create an account, then install COWOA or FEC..

OK, I just got back on and see that and turned off the Express now as said.

What is COWOA or FEC, I'll look to see what those are and what they do.

I want to encourage users to make accounts, it would be good if they do, I just do not want to force it.

mc12345678:

Also think about this, the other sites mentioned don't leave the site to take credit card information. Paypal offers those options but at a fee if I am not mistaken. That option could also be exercised to possibly address some of the same issue. But I haven't investigated what options are offered under that plan so one would have to do one's research first.

One could also add instructions/guidance about what is expected to happen. What is better a site that just lands a customer somewhere or one that guides them through the process? Be hones, be open. Because this site uses a PayPal Express payment collection. method shipping charges will not be calculated until step x of the checkout process and that no charges will be applied until the purchase has been accepted in step y.

Then on steps x and y can provide further instruction.

Just a thought. There's more than one way to address a perceived problem.

Yep I see what you mean.

I just placed an order at a store. It also did not show the shipping until the last page to click to confirm order.
At that time I was rather surprised to see a $12 shipping charge and was not happy!
I thought the store had free shipping. It was the other store I had thought about order the same items from that had the free shipping though, so that shipping charge not showing till the last page took me for a surprise and almost lost them the order.
I had dealt with them in the past and know I got good products and good service so I placed the order anyway.

Maybe another good reason not to force accounts. I did not have to have one, I don't know if I do or not from last orders a few years ago, and I certainly would never remember any login info at this time and would have just not ordered rather then jump through hoops to figure out what E-mail I may have used and guess at a bunch of passwords etc.. to get into an old account! LOL

Bikerstuff:

I think many of us do not want to make accounts because we do not want to be permanently linked to a store or any of our info on file at the store other than to place the order and be then be removed.
If we make accounts then we are in the store system for life!

How a store handles account info is often different than just placing an order. Hackers may get into the accounts area like they just did with EBAY a few months ago, but may have allot harder time getting into the order and billing part of the store!
If I have an account and the store is hacked for the accounts, they get my info! If that info is NOT there then hackers cannot get it.
We see even EBAY cannot be trusted to keep our accounts secure, why would I trust some tiny store I never heard of before just to place a 1 time only order?
I don't even have any idea what software a store may be using most the time.

If I do not have an account then a hacker can not log into the account.
If I do not have a password, then a hacker cannot crack the password!
If my e-mail is not in an account, a hacker cannot spam me if he hacks into the stores user accounts.
Hacker cannot get my address or phone number if it is not there!
Etc.. Etc..Those are all good points.
But, even when you DON'T create an account, ALL YOUR INFORMATION is STILL in the order details, because it's needed for order fulfillment. So if the site gets hacked, then hackers can get ALL your information. The only thing they don't get is a hashed password because you didn't supply one. But that's really a moot point because you should always use a different password for every site anyway, regardless. Period. Full stop.

So, it really comes down to the idea of whether the purchaser ever intends to return and buy again.

Bikerstuff:

Newegg is a bit different, and I like the fact that I can look up my orders from the day I made the account so many years ago and see what I bought when and even most the time find the details for discontinued items etc..
So it was good in this case that Newegg did not delete my user account after a few years of not buying anything. But that is the RARE exception of wanting an account.Exactly. So in that case having an account was desirable.
Do YOU run a business where you WANT customers to come back over and over again on a frequent basis? If so, what are you doing to ensure that they do? How are you encouraging them to come back so that having an account is actually useful for them? I think THAT is where one ought to focus their efforts, instead of on trying to prevent customers from creating an account (unless you don't want them ever to buy from you again).

Bikerstuff:

I want to encourage users to make accounts, it would be good if they do, I just do not want to force it.
That's a fair middle-ground. And that's why ZC v1.6.0 is being refined to allow guest checkout. But it'll still be up to the storeowner to properly present their business in a way that encourages customers to come back over and over again.

(For the record, lest I be accused of not wanting guest checkout, I am indeed very much in favor of shopping at stores which offer guest checkout. ... unless I come back often, in which case I echo your same sentiments of gratitude for being able to access my order history, and so on.)

Bikerstuff:

I think many of us do not want to make accounts because we do not want to be permanently linked to a store or any of our info on file at the store other than to place the order and be then be removed.
If we make accounts then we are in the store system for life!
You are truly not clear on how this works behind the scenes.. when you shop in an online store, the store creates a CUSTOMER RECORD for you. Whether it's a small Zen Cart store or a big box retailer.. They HAVE to collect your information for billing and order fulfillment.. and in the USA for TAX purposes.. So YES the store HAS to collect your billing data.. (name, address). Creating an account only adds a user name and login to this CUSTOMER RECORD so you can speed up the checkout process by not having to enter this information on your next visit..

You seem to be under the MISTAKEN impression that checking out as a guest means the store doesn't collect the data they need for fulfillment and billing.. Even PAYPAL and EBAY (since you brought them up) require BILLING and SHIPPING information to use these services.. Tell me if you have ever made a purchase with PayPal and DID NOT have to supply your billing and or shipping data.. Tell me when you made an online purchase with a credit card and did not have to supply BILLING information...

Go ahead.. think about it.. I'll wait.. :mellow:

DrByte:

Those are all good points.
But, even when you DON'T create an account, ALL YOUR INFORMATION is STILL in the order details, because it's needed for order fulfillment. So if the site gets hacked, then hackers can get ALL your information. The only thing they don't get is a hashed password because you didn't supply one.Exactly!!!

I have been amazed at the things people will do to protect their information today. Right or wrong I"m guessing 10-20% of people won't want to create a username and password just to make an order. That could be the difference in a business being a success or failure. This is making me wish I hadn't chosen zencart as my platform. My developer said it was flexible but now I'm learning not so much.

Maybe you haven't seen the COWOA mod in the Plugins area.