v1.2.6 -> v1.3.5: What a B!TCH!

I’ve read the many points on this thread and think the big picture may be a bit out of focus.

The software is great and so are the people that develop and contribute. We need to remember this is a team collaboration to provide a professional product at little to no cost for most of us. As such, only time and people limit thorough testing as well as documentation of details (changes). What could have made the jump from 1.2 to 1.3 a little easier was a manual with specifics -- but that takes added resources.

Taking the emotion out of these posts, many have valid points – from all sides.

I have a suggestion – If you have talent and are not presently contributing back to Zen, consider offering a portion of your time to help. A committee willing to test new releases and also document the “how-to” for all levels of user experience would be beneficial for everyone.

If you’re not savvy in this regard, then consider a donation to the Zen Team. If several contribute to what I’ll call a “documentation project”, then someone could be hired specifically for this purpose.

No one likes surprises but most are willing to invest time given adequate documentation and a guide to follow.

I have one site to upgrade myself (1.2.7 to 1.3.5.). I expect this to be a learning experience but so was my first exposure to Zen 1.2.5, in June a year ago.

This is a great product and has grown through the hard work of many good people. If you’re in agreement with me, take a moment to send a donation if you never have or its been a while. Also if you’re not already contributing then consider giving of your time.

And remember, a kind word of thanks to the team is always well received.

And yes, I just made a donation myself – and Thank You to the team of Zen!
Ken

webspacecreations:

I have just spent 2 days straight upgrading a site from v1.2.6 -> v1.3.5, so humor me as I vent a bit. I wouldn't have bothered with the update except for multiple notifications I have seen/ received regarding security risks, specifically SQL injection attacks. Vulnerability to SQL injection attacks in an e-commerce package isn't good. The mistake that I made here was failing to archive the database so that I could revert it to its 1.2.6 state. After taking the database through its numerous updates to reach v1.3.5 I installed the latest copy of ZenCart. Then I moved my client's template into the new directory and all hell broke loose! Things just didn't work. After reinstalling the v1.2.6 backup, the site worked until you try to log in/ checkout. I was in a Catch-22: I could spend a considerable amount of time trying to revert the database to its 1.2.6 state (but then the site would still be vulnerable) or I could just figure out why the template wasn't working with the new code.

This was a nightmare. 95% of the changes I had made to the 1.2.6 ZenCart were stored to the custom templates directory. The other 5% were made to the core code itself. Re-applying the changes to the core wasn't too difficult (not much to do), but the template files were EXTREMELY difficult. First, filenames have changed, or what was once a single file is now comprised of 2 or 3 new files. Talk about a wild goose chase trying to track down where the code now resides within the template directory. Moving code was a real headache, but even layout/ style elements have changed DRASTICALLY! In comparison to the small iterative changes I have seen in the past, v1.3.5 should have been numbered v2.0 or something to indicate that it is absolutely incompatible with the previous 1.2.x version. I don't expect major compatibility issues in point upgrades.

Once all the functionality was in place and layout was largely fixed, the next problem was CSS. Many of the CSS identifiers have gotten a name change FOR NO GOOD REASON! I was trying to figure out which old identifier translated to which new identifier. Although the identifier names have changed, their purpose remains largely unchanged. Why were CSS identifier names changed? That effectively breaks 100% of the v.1.2.x templates out there. My current solution isn't elegant (tacked old CSS onto the end of the new CSS and removed some of the easier to spot redundancies... for a whopping 32K CSS file).

I think the reality is this: if you're attempting to upgrade your site from 1.2.x -> 1.3.5, you're going to have to redesign your web site (unless you're using the default ZenCart template). This is the same problem I have seen with Linux distributions... you decide to upgrade to the latest version of Linux for security reasons and your apps break or your system won't start. The way the Linux world solves the problem is committing to supporting a particular distribution for x years. That is to say, there should have been a 1.2.6a -> 1.2.6b security upgrade which affects only the code that is unsecure.

Yes, ZenCart is free. Yes, ZenCart has done lots of good things for code that was derived from the stagnant osCommerce core. Until now I would not have hesitated to recommend it to others. But what I am observing is this: what started out as complex code is becoming increasingly complex as parts are split, then split again; code is deeply interwined in design elements; it seems that a lot of effort went into upgrading the default template from its original ugly orange design to a new CSS-based green design that is nearly as ugly (a waste of time); many plug-ins seem to no longer be compatible; and many of those plug-ins can no longer be found after the ZenCart site update.

I would prefer to see a focus shift from changing the way things work to IMPROVING the way things work. Focus on security. Focus on improved usability (the admin interface is a jumbled mess). By changing the whole template system, you throw away the valuable efforts others have put into building custom templates (some for free). By drastically changing the way the code works, you throw away the valuable effort developers have put into coding plug-ins.

It is not my intention to anger anyone. This is simply my perspective from "in the trenches." I hope it is taken as constructive criticism and a helpful warning to anyone else attempting a similar upgrade. Thanks for all the hard work ZenCart.

do what id did and stop using it..... In the past zen was great but now it sux.....and i agree to many changes.....If you look at the main website they change that just as often...DONT FIX IT IF IT AINT BROKE!

I would much rather pay for a stable solid cart then deal with this again.....I agree with you man

And, you were running Zen on your Commodore 64 or a Sinclair ZX81?
Morse code wasn't broke(n), so why are you on the internet?

Zen is growing, not fixing. I'm a couple of months older than the discovery of silicon technology at Bell labs and I'd hate to think where we's be today if someone had become satisfied.

With each new release of Zen, I'm excited at the new possibilities and features I can provide for my clients.

Yes, that does increase the difficulty for the individual that thinks AOL is a major host. If one does not understand that a folder called DOCS and a link called Tutorials might get them some information, they should be getting help before attempting to modify any portion of a basic installation. Too many folks stand in front of a microwave these days and holler, "HURRY UP!"

dbltoe:

I'm a couple of months older than the discovery of silicon technology at Bell labs Wow, are you talking about Bardeen, Brattain and Shockley's invention of the transistor? That would make you 4 years older than me. If so you might just be the only person on the entire ZC forum who remembers the old BC108. (Actually, I just looked it up on Google and was amazed to discover they're still making them. So old doesn't necessarily mean 'past it' after all :smile: ) > dbltoe:

I'd hate to think where we's be today if someone had become satisfied. One truth certainly. But, imho, not the only one.

Development is absolutely necessary. But it can be scary. Is always risky. And certainly not suitable for the majority who want a quiet life and a stable base.

Zen Cart has never presented itself as being a scary, roller-coaster ride over constantly shifting sands. Para 2 of the home page still says: > Some "solutions" seem to be complicated programming exercises instead of responding to users' needs, Zen Cart™ puts the merchants and shoppers requirements first. Similarly, other programs are nearly impossible to install and use without an IT degree, Zen Cart™ can be installed and set-up by anyone with the most basic web site building and computer skills. So, the major USP of Zen, the thing that is supposed to differentiate it from its elders (and some may even say betters) is not its the breathtaking, dizzying rate of development, but its usability. > dbltoe:

Yes, that does increase the difficulty for the individual that thinks AOL is a major host. If one does not understand that a folder called DOCS and a link called Tutorials might get them some information, they should be getting help before attempting to modify any portion of a basic installation. Also true. But also not the whole of it. > dbltoe:

Zen is growing, not fixing. Ah, well, now then... Can I refer you to a major bug with the state selection routine in 1.3.2 at http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40630 which caused major problems from July through September, which necessitated the release of a major make-over in 1.3.5 which has a new and equally problematic bug in the same area, which is now raging at http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47018&page=5
That would tend to give some weight to mfreund humble opionion that: > mfreund:

I would much rather pay for a stable solid cart then deal with this again..... IMHO Zen IS great. Development IS absolutely necessary. The core team ARE marvellous. They HAVE developed lots of wonderful new features.

**BUT **- and it IS a big but...

As the original Zen (Bhuddist) masters might well have said: Balance in all things.

Breakneck development needs to be balanced and back-stopped on a stable base.

The only stable base we have that I can see at the moment is certainly 1.2.7d and possible 1.3.1. After that, all the evidence would suggest that Zen is indeed caught up in a process of fixing rather than growing.

This is not an insoluable problem.

IMHO the real trouble is that contributors to these forums seem to either fall or are swiftly pushed into one of two opposing camps. You're either entirely with us and stomping down hard on anybody who isn't, or your against us. Now where have I heard that before? I think somebody quite important said it a few years ago. IMHO that IS the only thing that really sucks.

What we need is some kind of middle ground between those two viewpoints, where dogma and emotionality are not allowed to cloud the issues and open, objective, forensic analysis is allows us to weigh the ratio of pros and cons and reach solid, ratio-nal conclusions.

Call me an old codger, a stick-in-the-mud and a doggon nuisance, but my feeling is that things are going just a little too quickly for their own good. As always happens in these hotbed kind of developments, there's a real danger that things may start falling over and spinning out of control.

What we all need is to take a breather, slow down, chill out, take it easy and smell the roses for a while. > dbltoe:

Too many folks stand in front of a microwave these days and holler, "HURRY UP!" Now ain't that the truth :smile:

I thought I surely would have started a rant about the superiority of the Sinclair basic over Commodore Basic.:smile:
I do reserve the right to "straighten out" the young whipper-snappers who complain when things go awry. Especially when they blame the cart, devs, etc. for problems resulting in fact from their lack of research, supposed knowledge, or just plain stubborness.
Standard Scenario 1:

I downloaded Zen 13 months ago and have finally gotten around to making my millions. I went to Radio Shack and bought a book on PHP and have most of the basic pages rewritten. I still need to know how to view the files on my computer so I can email them to my host.Reckon he's gonna be a happy camper for long? Is it a clue that this is post one for OneDog10Tango? What do you want to bet that the answer to the obvious question would be> I didn't have time to check out the wiki or tutorials as I was on deadline and I deleted the docs folder because I'm running out of room on my 300G hard drive. Please Help!
PS how do I remove the "Powered by ZenCart"The opposite end of the spectrum is Standard Scenario 2:> Got everything downloaded and started but can't get the thingy out of the middle. Please advise.Nine times out of ten, this is someone who would be able to recognize a computer two out of three times. BUT, this person IS asking for help and generally willing to be pointed in the right direction.
As I said Zen is growing and, with any growing, there are adjustments. IMAC, you yourself in http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40630 said> There's an old adage that says that out of 'quick', 'cheap' and 'good', you can't have more than 2 at the same time. So if it's 'free' and you want it 'good', then it can't be quick. All of which is by way of saying that I'm ashamed to admit that news of a Zen core-team fix for what has always been one of the major bug-bears in the osC/Zen create account interface - the defined State/Zone kick-back problem - put me in a state roughly equivalent to a 5-year-old waiting for Christmas. If Ajeh says it's good, then it must be good! I know that asking when it might be ready is about as inappropriate as asking Father Christmas to get-a-move-on down the chimney.while saying here that folks had to wait from July to September for a Major Fix and later said in the same post> Why leap to the conclusion that it's a terminal problem when there are thousands of other installations out there running OK, and more than 30k users on these forums who might have a lot of other problems, but don't seem to be having this one?So I think the term Major applies only to problem if it's yours and, that's understandable but not necessarily valid for the point you were making. I also refer you to http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showpost.php?p=280713&postcount=41 which is in your other link. You talk about being anxious and that it's not worth it then go on to discuss time involved which wasn't really on track with the bug thread but not a bad point either.
Have you noticed a trend here that we can find as many different statements by ourselves as we have moods.
The overall point I was trying to make is that the thread was started by someone who admittedly made the mistake of not backing up a database before messing with it and then transferred the blame to the template system. I wonder if we would have heard the same complaint had the database been saved.
The crowning touch and what started my <soapbox> was not webspacecreations post as I have been in the same shoes in one way or another since the first ZX-80.
But mfreund has been throwing temper tantrums for some time and judging by time spent complaining and trying to make 1.3.+ Mods work with 1.2.+, I think he might have been long ago upgraded and all Google items working. In http://www.zen-cart.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43513, he stomped his feet and made the "I'll just take myself elsewhere" statement. In post #5 of that thread, I thought that DrByte gave one of the better answers I've seen in a long time. In it, DrByte pointed mfreund not only to the area to pay the money he mentioned to have a stable cart but, also reminded him of the many discussions that would hold his hand. And that for free. Rather than take advantage of either, two months were taken to try to make newer mods retrofit to something he didn't want to upgrade. In the words I used to see years ago, "Illegal bounds interrupt. Stop."
Rather than being on the defensive as implied, I was attempting to let future readers know that statements and decisions made or proposed by mfreund were, again in my opinion, not based on knowledge or logic. Instead they were founded only in stubborness.
Since I moved from OsC in '04, I have continually requested a change to the cart that I am unable to code myself. At first, I was told that it was not necessarily something that the general Zenner would require. When I entered it in the forum, I got a multitude of "me too's." Someone recently created a mod that is real close and I've been told that my needs will be met soon in the core files.
Not once have I said that Zen "sux" nor thrown a temper tantrum when told I'd have to do some work (vividly remember a mistake and Ajeh gently telling me I would need to modify all 900+ products by hand). Instead, I spend time (not much money to donate) returning to Zen by doing what I can to help those who are willing to listen.
And now I'll just </soapbox> and get back to helping someone. That is, after some sleep.:sleepy:
Zen Cart - over 32,200 forum members and a grouch or two.:smile:

Wow. A very impressive analysis. And done in such a short time. Respect is due :thumbsup:

Just a couple of small points: > dbltoe:

I thought I surely would have started a rant about the superiority of the Sinclair basic over Commodore Basic.:smile: I never got into either of those I'm afraid. I started with computing back in the days when disk drives were bigger than washing machines, a lot of the kit was still made out of valves, and to get anywhere near it you had to go through an air lock. I wasn't very keen on bringing work home with me so I was one of those late-adopters who didn't get a home computer until the first CPM machines appeared. > dbltoe:

Have you noticed a trend here that we can find as many different statements by ourselves as we have moods. No. Can't say that I do. If you'd said 'angles' or 'points of view' instead of 'moods' then I'd have agreed. But the different angles I've taken in all those various threads have very little to do with mood. I try to assess every situation from as many different angles as possible before I start drawing conclusions. Playing Devil's Advocate is a time-honoured technique for finding out how strongly any argument stand up and where the truth really lies.

That aside, all my posts were addressing different points raised on different sides of different issues. Pulling all of them together out of context is like trying to put steak and custard on the same plate. It's just never going to work.

The devil, as always, is in the detail.

dbltoe:

Y ou talk about being anxious... Gives an entirely different impression to what I actually said, which was: > imac:

I will admit to feeling a bit anxious when the 1.3.2 bug first appeared. But that was only because we had some high-value products and the loss of the tax on just one would have cost more than the whole site.

dbltoe:

Rather than being on the defensive as implied, I was attempting to let future readers know that statements and decisions made or proposed by mfreund were, again in my opinion, not based on knowledge or logic. I absolutely got that straight away. And I don't in anyway disagree. If I implied you were being defensive, that was not my intention. The more words flying around the more likely that ambiguity and misunderstandings will appear. Just as the more code flying around the more likely that bugs will appear. :smile:

I have been in the computer industry since before there were disk drives. That's sad :blush: . For many of those years, I was a software developer and became highly sensitized to the issues surrounding new versions of products.
What I have not seen in this thread (if it's there and I missed it, please forgive the redundancy) is that version 1.3.* is a major release over version 1.2.*. Changing from one major release to another should cause everyone to expect there to be incompatible changes introduced. Changing minor releases within a major release should not have any incompatible changes other than those absolutely required (e.g., for security purposes or to fix a totally broken feature).

I am currently on 1.2.6 and just got my store up and running. I am dreading the conversion to 1.3.5/6 because I have a day job and several other major time-consuming responsibilities. But I understand the necessity of going through the pain and will probably take the opportunity to give my store a fresher look -- heck, if I have to redo it anyway, I might as well try to make it better, eh?

In closing, I want to thank the Zencart team for all the great work they have done and are doing. Sure, there are about a hundred things that Zencart doesn't do that I wish it did (like automatically bring more customers to my store:P) and I'll enter some of them into the features request forum one of these days. But I'm impressed with all it does right now!

I completed my conversion to 1.3.7.1, and it gave me fits! The database was the most difficult thing ... the conversion did not go as documented.

After I finally was able to restore the database to the new system, the automatic upgrade scripts were very convenient, and I thank the zen cart team for the work they did on that.

If I can ever get comfortable with backing up and restoring the database, I think I'll be fine.

Ray, you are in good company. I had a virtually impossible time getting the database upgrade to work. It finally came down to a DrByte suggestion of fixing the database prefix code in an obscure file that finally enabled the upgrade to proceed. Although all the errors that I got during the conversion freaked me out... especially the "reassurance" that the errors could likely be ignored. Sure they can... that makes be feel real secure.

I do thank the support team for giving the suggestion that ultimately got me up and running. I just wish the process could be more straightforward somehow.

I must take some blame for waiting so long to upgrade my 1.2 installation. My bad.

l just updated one of my clients sites from version 1.26 to 1.38 with absolutely no trouble at all. l've kept up to date with new releases on most stores (use a new release as it comes out, and upgrade where requested on older clients.) This particular client didn't want to change until l really put the pressure on. l guess because of keeping relatively up to date though l was fairly used to the newer css template changes.

l'm just a graphic designer with very minimal knowledge of php and how it works, and l managed the upgrade in under 2 hours, as well as updating her graphics for the new store. Reapplying the template took a little bit longer but not too much, l think that you've probably gone about it the wrong way, and as a result it's not really fair to get on here and complain. (original poster)

l kept the old store completely intact (it is still being used while we test the new one & add some newer products), just copied the database, uploaded the new zen files to a new folder on the server, dumped the old database, ran the upgrade, and voila, it was done. She now has two stores while we fix up a few things (just basic checks), but l don't even use the template override system, (norty, l know!) and l had no probs at all. Just wanted to put my 2 bobs worth in and say l LOVE zencart and recommend it to all new clients, l refuse to use any other shopping cart.

Originally, yes, l hated the changes (css did my head in LOL) but l think you have to move with the times and be accepting of changes, l now realise that l just have to make the effort to keep up and not stick my head in the sand.

ps. Ray, l was just going to offer to upgrade your store for you free of charge, but l read the rest of the thread and see that you've managed it. PM me if you would like any help.

:-)

(broken foot here and bored silly LOL)

scrapgabbie -- Thanks for the offer, but I think I have it down, now. I just think the instructions could be a little clearer for those who are new to this. It's easy to forget that those who don't use the system often do not comprehend things as fast as those who use it on a daily basis.

I had the same problem when I tried to explain binary to my wife. I had no idea she didn't know the difference between base 10 and base 2 ... in fact, she had no idea what "base 10" was. I was doomed from the start!

As your graphic design background is different than PHP, mine is OS mainframes.

The problem I had upgrading was the new system (different hardware) wouldn't read the database backup from the old one, even though the backup/restore program was the same. I had to use Notepad to insert some carriage returns, and then it worked fine. It was very simple -- after I found someone who knew what was happening!

I can certainly say I learned a lot, and I think the next upgrade will go better. If not, I'll take you up on your generous PM offer.

Sorry about your broken foot! Did you try to teach someone binary, too?